110% No0b

In short, download a c++ compiler (gcc, borland, visual studio etc) and go to http://nehe.gamedev.net for c++/pc programming, or for a start in mobile games go to:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1949.asp.

Also, trawl back through some of the older posts on the forums as your questions have been answered a few times before too.

Dave

Once you’ve mastered one language its pretty easy to adopt another. I wouldnt add much more on to what Dave has already said.

Ronny did find this which might help you srearch through the forum quicker

http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/forums/search.php%5B/quote:f1636744f9%5D

Once you’ve mastered one language its pretty easy to adopt another. [/quote:1071e3f8d3]

not always true, C++ shouldnt be entered into likely. you its a trick language to learn correctly.
i would say start with java, then progress to c++

have a look at devcentral:

http://devcentral.iticentral.com/default.php

not always true, C++ shouldnt be entered into likely. you its a trick language to learn correctly.
i would say start with java, then progress to c++[/quote:8a8d97de48]

I suppose you’re right. I came from VB(dire language IMO) and then java and then C++. I still say that if you can master a language like C++ you’ll be able to quickly pick up any language.

Now I’m not sure if the other folks will agree with me on this one but if your starting out programming I’d advise you to give Java a go first. From my own experience I found C++ all the easier due to my time with Java. However if you can start with C++ and master it then Java will be even easier again.

Yeah definitely. Java made C++ much more approachable.

It’s rather funny, I found myself having quite a hard time in Java, having started from C++. I think what really did my head in (and still does) is all the abstraction of Java. It’s a great way of doing thing in the lond run, but when you are just learning… I dunno.

Don’t diss VB just yet. It is a rather moronic language in some respects, but it is highly rewarding and not very demanding. If what you are looking for is getting things done (say, if you have an idea and you want to see a quick prototype) VB is an excellent place to go.
The lecturer in me wants to take any CD of VB I find and throw them to the fire, cos you won’t learn much that is useful (except from the basic loops and conditional stuff), but the programmer in me delights in how easy it is to do anything… your choice.

Another thing to keep in mind is not so much the language but the way you learn programming. Learning isn’t about making a great looking game. Sure you’ll learn lots along the way, but you will miss out on a ton of other things. What you really need is a great book on algorithms, stuff like stacks, queues, memory management, arrays, linked lists, etc.

All this stuff is already built in, in Java, so you miss out on the possibility of learning how it’s done. If you start with good old C (no, not C++, one thing at a time young padawan), you have to do it all yourself.
Again, it’s all about what you want to get from your learning.
If you want to go ahead and start drawing stuff on screen, you can just pick up SDL and get drawing. Or you can pick up a good book and figure out how a pixel is a actually sent to the screen (I wonder if you can still do direct pixel plotting to the video memory those days), then how a guy called Brensenham devised a great way to draw lines, then some other guy called Wu got this cool idea of how to draw antialiased pixels (Wu-pixels), and so on and so forth.

Knowing how people are those days, I doubt you’ll bother, but hey, you wanted opinions, so that’s mine.
That’s what good computer courses are for, BTW.

Philippe

http://print.google.ie/print?ie=UTF-8&q=games+programming+books&btnG=Search

Starting off with Java is easier than starting with C++.
With Java you learn all the hierarchincal stuff and OO programming. Get familiar with all that and then worry about moving over to C++ and getting your head around pointers.
Alternatively, learn C and then move up to C++ or just go have a look at C#.

F.A.O. Aceley

The best thing you could do would be to avoid ‘junk’ like Dark Basic.

Why?

Well, they are pretty much drag-and-drop editors. (I don’t know your complete edu. background, so if you know this stuff, apologies)

So, as suggested above, yeah, get yourself a copy of MS Visual Studio (you could get Borland, but I would recommend Vis Studio).

Then, get yourself a couple of books, by Ian Parberry & Andre LaMothe. They really are the ‘daddies’ of Game Programming Books. You could look around online for PDF versions (trial versions, free versions, or chapter excerpts) of the books, but your better off buying them on Amazon.

So, with MS Vis Studio installed, and a copy of Introduction to Computer Game Programming with DirectX 8.0 on standby, the next thing you need to do is download, and install the DirectX 9.0c API (www.microsoft.com look for downloads, etc.) Essentially DirectX is a bunch of header files & DLL’s, that allow your programs access to system devices (Sound Card, Video Card, etc.).

You can then start making your way through that book, doing the tutorials, and by the end of it, you’ll have a 2D platform game under your belt.

That’ll take no more than 2 months.

If your still interested in Games Programming after that, get a copy of Andre LaMothe’s Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus . This book is the The Holy Quran (or Bible, whatever your into…). Its covers pretty much everything. Again, you will use MS Vis Studio & DirectX API to write programs as you go through the chapters, and by the end of the book (1000+ pages) you’ll be fairly schooled.

This will take about 2-3 months.

After that, it’d be time to get a specific DirectX book like Kris Gray’s The Microsoft DirectX 9 Programmable Graphics Pipeline . It’s Hard-Core.

by doing this you’ll gain a huge appreciation for whats going on ‘under-the-hood’ of ‘cheating’ apps like Dark Basic, etc.

Now, with respect to the Java suggestions, I would strongly recommend you ignore them.

Java is billed as the CURE-ALL for programming, because you don’t have to worry about Memory Management, (pointers, etc.)

So for people who don’t know (or don’t want to know) how to program efficiently (which is what games programming is all about…) Java is great.

So, in short, spend 3 days learning how to use pointers in C++, and then you can give Java a miss (or the fingers!!!).

…Begrudginly, I will say that if you are planning to develop games for mobile phones, than J2ME (a streamlined version of Java SDK) is what you’ll need to look at (and you can ignore this rant…)

Anyway, if you have any questions, relating to books, SDK’s, just PM me. I remember what it was like to be a newbie, and people talking way over your head…

skyclad : google is nice and all, but it’s nicer to get someone’s opinion about the books. well OK, I guess he could always read the opinions on Amazon.

Personally I remember vividly the first book I read by Andre Lamothe. This guy really explains it properly. Some serious programming, with a really good writing style, and a really useful “from the ground up” approach. Anyway, I think it’s a useful way to do things when you are learning because the stuff he wrote like, 10 years ago, I can still use, in essence, nowadays. Whereas my old copy of Inside Direct X (must have been version 5 at that point) is completely useless, and nothing more than a printed out manual.

In general, IMHO, run away screaming from anything that looks like a tutorial to using some engine. You’ll more than probably only learn about that game engine and not much stuff that’s useful anywhere else.

And look up a book on Algorithms and Data Structures. That’s the sort of thing you could have bought ten years ago and still use now, and probably another ten years…
Check this link out, to know what it’s about.
Implementing this sort of things is what any good course in Computing should teach you.

Note that I have a slightly different perspective than others, as for me a language is just a detail compared to what it is I want to do. I explained that in another thread…

if you start with Java, don’t start doing anything graphical. Do all the command line stuff first, cos learning about Swing and similar is just gonna confuse the hell out of you, IMO.

And note that in my opinion, if you follow the path jediboy outlined above, you’ll certainly learn how to program, but you won’t learn how to be a programmer.

Philippe

What are you saying Frogman of Froga-traz?

If he reads those books, he’ll be well on his way to becoming a programmer.

Aceley, don’t listen to philippe. He is crap at Counter-Strike, DoD, BF2, and just about every other game I can think of.

…Ok, SOME (by no means ALL) of philipe’s points were valid. DirectX books age very quickly. But those books (Parberry, LaMothe, and so on) are crackers. They include generic algorithms, data structures which will never expire (that’s why I recommended them…).

Read the books, follow the tutorials…

You will become a Jedi…sorry…Games Programmer.

And then, with C++ & DirectX as your ally, you can strike Darth Frog down, and your journey towards the Programming side will be complete…

…I have foreseen it!

…sorry, Le Frog’s name is philippe/b] not philipe. Apologies for spelling your name wrong Frenchman.

(But all the other insults remain where I left them!)

While this is indeed a game development forum I have to point out that the OP doesnt know anything about coding and so recommending he dives straight into games development material seems abit dodgy in my opinion.

Speaking from a student perspective I’d say the book “Java In Two Semesters” would be a good place to start. It will give you a solid base from which to build on with regards your skill with Java and the sections are nice and modular yet easily referencable, if you don’t want to cover swing then just skip it and go back to it later when you’re ready! Its also cheaper than most of the programming books, hell I’m still putting money together for my first proper C++ book by Deitel and Deitel! :D

As I said this is from a student perspective and is geared towards someone really starting from scratch. The books the others have mentioned are all fantastic and highly recommended but I doubt they really cater for the complete programming beginner…

ACtually, now that you mention it, I read an excellent JAVA book recently that just sparkled my interest in the language again.
And more importantly, the writer publishes FREE versions of his book on his website. The whole book.
He has a very good writing style in my opinion, and a unique perspective on how to program. Go and give it a look, at least. It’s well worth it!

And I don’t think jediboy’s advices are wrong, I just mean that there are misguided, IMHO.
Sure you’ll learn to be a Jedi, but from the wrong side of the Force. The true way to the Force is long and tedious, and not filled with nice fancy graphics and visual interfaces and you don’t get to wield a lightsaber till you can build it yourself, remember?
Follow the lengthy path of the command line, if a Master you ever want to become :wink:

Although he is right to recommend Lamothe. Andre Lamothe is a freaking hero of game programming books. Read him, worship him.

Philippe

ACELEY

well MAYBE if you’ve never ever ever compiled a “Hello World” program in C++, then MAYBE my suggested books might go over your head. MIGHT. Then again, you MIGHT just be adept, and pick this stuff up no probs.

First choice you have to make is what platform you want to make games for. PC? Console? or Phone? I know this is very early on to be thinking of this, but believe VERY VERY FEW Recruiters want to hire General-Knowledge Games Programmers.

In my opinion (which is based on the fact that I deal with Games-Recruiters EVERYDAY) they want to talk to people who pick a focus area (such as Lighting or Cameras in DirectX) and are the best at that particular area.

In a perfect world you could start off with some generic, high-level software engineering crap, by the likes of Ian Sommerville, then do 2 years of Systems Analysis & Design where you’ll learn how to draw stick men bubbles (both square bubbles and round bubbles, WOW!) that will turn MAGICALLY into code using some applications like Rational Rose.

And after 4 years of theory from Booch & Meyer you’ll know how to design software for flight-reservation systems, and hotel-booking systems.

Which is lovely. Fecking lovely. then you can ring some of the boys at Probe, and ask for a Entry Level Games Programming Position, and when you start telling them all about your database-driven hotel management system that you did for you BSc all they’ll do is laugh.

The difference in style and general program layout between a game written in C++ and a console or win32 app (like the above mentioned management system) is monstrous.

but seeing as you want to learn about programming for games, you can pretty much cut out this crap, and delve into this book.

Paul Kelly’s A Guide to C++ Programming ( http://www.gillmacmillan.ie/Ecom/Library3.nsf/0/13F49E5B2BEB35FC80256AE000373628?OpenDocument )

I loaned my copy to people who had never turned a computer on, and they learned so so so so much from it. So it’ll have you up to speed with Syntax, and Practical examples in no time.

Its really up to you at this point. depends on how much time you have on your hands, and what your hoping to get out of this. Games Developement is alot of fun. Poses many challenges, and can be very taxing.

Look Frog.

Stay out of this. Aceley is my Apprentice. And he will become more powerful than you can imagine. And when he does, he will strike you, and your Old-School command-line ways down.

there’s no harm in him practising with a lightsaber that someone else constructed, is there? IS THERE?

Luke, (the epitomy of goody-goody light side) didn’t build his first lightsaber. Or did they not include that part in the French Version of Star Wars? Huh? Huh????????

And Luke is considered to be the saving grace of the Force. SO ACELEY doesn’t need you OR your Java books (unless he’s developing for the mobile phones), so go peddle your light-side teachings somewhere else!

For starting in java I would recommend ‘Java : Intro to Computer Science & Programming’ by Savitch, it is good for an intro to an OOP and all round guide to java.
Also what would you like to focus on in terms of game development? AI, Physics, Rendering, etc?

Sometimes jediboy scares me….

Starting off with Java is easier than starting with C++.
With Java you learn all the hierarchincal stuff and OO programming. Get familiar with all that and then worry about moving over to C++ and getting your head around pointers.
Alternatively, learn C and then move up to C++ or just go have a look at C#.[/quote:7e5dc29af3]

Damo, Jim T is thinking of learning C++, he is getting the help of a programmer mate of his to help him. Based on this thread I told him to start with Java…have words with him ;)

whether you decide to start with Java or C/C++ I would recommend the” Learn to Program With… books by Deitel & Deitel… expensive but comprehensive, and you could start them with NO knowledge of programing (let alone, the language in question) and make your way through them without too much bother

Also, one thing that ought to be mentioned – theres a lot of non-game programming to go through before you can get your first game up and running in c++. You need to have a basic idea of what canbe /should be/is done long before you can start using directx to draw pretty things to the screen.

Dave

Aceley,

keine probleme…

B.

PS: Whenever you get round to constructing your very own lightsaber, I know a certain frenchman, who make a good test subject for it! Ya hear that phillippe, Darth Aceley is coming for ya!

I’d recommend one of those Learn Java/C++ in 21 days. They’re actually pretty damn good.

Or go to http://www.cplusplus.com for an intro to C++. Thats where I go when I need to brush up on code theory and terminology.

completely agree with Skyclad on this (although I can also see the merits on the Learn C++ in 21 Days books, published by Sams that Omen recommended)

For the record, I can’t see myself EVER hiring a programmer whose sole programming experience is based on 1 or 2 year HNC/D course… Yeah, you can have 2 or 3 portfolio games – but any gobshite can cut ‘n’ paste or type in code from a book/handout… that does not a software engineer make

I think you’ll find must employers with the same attitude. Not to put down any courses but you really should consider a degree course in computer science if you’re serious about getting into the games industry.

jediboy : don’t get me wrong, I have seen a guy last year who had never programmed in his life and was suddenly making the project I have been working on for the last few months, in a matter of a week or two.
So yeah, I agree that you can go straight to the point and learn stuff.

But like I said, you’ll be someone who programs, not a programmer.

To use an analogy, if I was given a rusty rifle, an itchy uniform, a pair of shiny boots and two weeks training, I bet I’d make a decent soldier.
In fact, I bet the enemies I would manage to shoot would be just as dead as those shot by my sergeant and his twenty years of experience.
But I would never, ever presume that I now anything about fighting, tactics, and being a soldier in general…

Does that make sense ?

Put it this way, you learnt from a Sith, but like the poor Anakin, you just haven’t come to admit what you have become yet :wink:
Doesn’t mean you are bad at wielding your lightsaber.
In fact, from my perspective, you are much better than me!
Yet, with my two years of French education, I learnt so much more than anything you guys learnt in four years of computing here…
How? Because my lecturer was damn good at it.
We did C in one year, from Hello World to redirecting a system interrupt (pointers to functions, anyone?)
And of this whole year, the first two months were spent far away from the computers, on paper, all in pseudocode.
Jedi training indeed (that was actually the running gag amongst us, that our training was as boring as that of a young Padawan…:lol: )

So I like to think I am more like Obi wan, not so much kicking ass and stuff, but I haven’t met somebody to whom I couldn’t teaching something, yet :roll:

Oh, and how does this relate to our good Aceley and his question?
Well, I think that all the best book in the world can’t beat a good lecturer (who isn’t necessarily a genius programmer, though, it’s all a bit complicated to explain)

Philippe

Yet, with my two years of French education, I learnt so much more than anything you guys learnt in four years of computing here…[/quote:3e2ecd9d21]
It’s great to hear how fantastic the French truly are at educating their young. Now if only you didnt go on strike all the time, you might actually be a useful addition to the workplace!

Dave
(who has studied in both French and Irish universities, making me the best programmer ever)

Looks like its Dave who’ll be ripping the gloves off at the next shindig…

This is a programming forum Pete. Get thee back to the “creative content” hidey hole we have made for you and your lah-tee-dah artistic glove removal fetishes…

LMAO :lol:

I must ask, Dave, where did you go study in France?
And I don’t know if our system is better, it’s just, well, different, you know?
Very elitist, but even for someone like me who was an underdog, with the hindsight I still think it’s better than going the American way and trying to make feel like they are OK when they should be doing something else…

And anyway, what do you mean going on strike? It’s nothing to do with being lazy, it’s a tradition! :wink:

Philippe

INSA, Lyon.

Ah, my birth town :)
How lucky of you to have been there. Although I don’t know anything about the INSA, so really can’t comment.

My personal experience is that after doing two years of Telecom and Networks (in which programming was just one of the main topics, but not the first by far), and the fact that the course was only one year old, and that my school was only a very small IT in a country town (Annecy, only 40k inhabitants), when I arrived here I was sorely dissapointed to see the level in programming (not just the students, but the lecturers as well!) and I was suddenly realising just how dense the French program had been.
I mean, geez, if I had been at the top of my class in France (and I certainly wasn’t), I would’ve known as much as most of the Electronics Engineering students about Electronics (digital and traditional), as much as the Computing students whether they were doing Network programming, Commercial programming or Data Sat, and I probably wouldn’t have had much problems in Physics, either…

I don’t know, maybe it’s just cos it’s Letterkenny?
One of my mates from Denmark who did Design for years seems to have had a similar experience.
Anyway, it’s one of the reasons I want to teach here, if only to help improve things.

Philippe

Hrm, as an experiement Jediboy click here. If I hear the reaction from here THEN I’ll be worried… :D

Amen to that. Maddox is Teh Messiah :lol:

Go to http://www.cpluslpus.com and download the tutorial.
Teaches you everything from the start, and its free.

Since you seem to be starting from absolute scrach I’ll just again mention the two books I’ve used that I’ve found incredibly helpful.

Java: Java In Two Semesters
C++: C++ How to Program

You won’t be doing anything on game development in them but if you want to learn the basics and then some, these are the books I’d recommend.

If you are on your own, with nobody to teach you, it’s very helpful if you set yourself some sort of goal. Something that you can actually achieve and that will motivate you to continue, while at the same time give you enough of a challenge that you will learn something.

I am not exactly sure a game is right way to start, in this regard, as a game generally implies graphics. I know only two types of games that are purely textual: roguelikes (check out ADOM or Crawl) and some adventure games. Oh and MUDS, but that’s multiplayer, so maybe not for a first game, eh? (Although if you are interested in learning network programming, it would be a great idea).
Maybe think something even simpler. I remember one of my first programs on my calculator (that was like 15 years ago on a little Casio) was a “Guess the Number” game. No really!

Something like a Hangman would be a great start, I would say. Teaches you input and outputs, loops, conditional logic, and some file handling (if you decide to have a file that contains the possible words that can appear).

Once you get that done, you can maybe move on to something bigger, depending on the next concept you want to learn.
Say, if you wanted to learn linked lists and objects, you could do like I did and make an “ants” program. You have a top down map (it’s all in text mode, so you don’t have to worry about all this graphic stuff, yet), you populate it with rocks, food and ants. The ants move around trying to grab food and only drop food if there is other food around. (it’s a bit more complicated than that, but bear with me here). The end result is that the ants, after a while, will have gathered little piles of food all over the map. Emergent AI. The map makes you work with arrays, and if you allow for several things to be on top of each other, you can learn about linked lists. And you can use an OO approach to describe the ants…

oh, and while you are still learning, ALWAYS try to write pseudo code, before you write anything.
It doesn’t matter which language. In fact, it’s precisely the point, your pseudocode should be portable to any programming language, since it describes what you want to do without concerning yourself with the specifics of a given language.
In fact, after a while, it helps you chose a language depending on what you are looking for, as you realise that some of the things your want to do cannot easily be done in one language, when another language can do them without a problem.

Philippe

I thought thats what i would have to do… Someone help me out here then…

AS Music – E
A2 Music – U
AVCE ICT – C/D (Eqiv to 2 A Levels)

Any of you people with a knowledge of how Uni’s work, how would i go about doing a computer science degree?
This is prob too wide a question, but its worth a shot :)[/quote:b7c059ec84]
If you need any help with UCAS university qualifications then feel free to ask me. Where exactly in Northern Ireland are you based?

Queen’s University Belfast have their requirements for Computer Science set at BCC. It’s also similar for the University of Ulster in Magee. UU Coleraine, which I’m sure Aphra could tell you more about, do a Computing degree that requires ‘a minimum of 260 UCAS Tariff Points to include grades BC’. That course has several game development specific modules!

You may want to go back to school/college for another year and brush up the grades so you can progress to uni. I know that they also accept vocational A Levels, Foundation Degrees, etc. So you might also want to consider that. Can you do ICT or Computing for an A Level? I’d imagine you’d do well in that.

You could always consider going to something in Britain. They generally have lower requirements as there’s less demand. It could be worth looking into getting a CAO application form and applying for a college in the south. I think Letterkenny do a comp sci degree. Not too sure though.

Well as far as Computer Science type courses go, I’m currently in Computer Applications here in DCU and I love the course so I suppose I should pimp it out some. :D

Clicky for info on the School Of Computing and the courses run.

Idora : but any gobshite can cut ‘n’ paste or type in code from a book/handout… that does not a software engineer make
[/quote:fd87c98d4a]

Ok. I will concede this argument, as I have been shown the errors of my ways.

What swayed the argument for me? the wisdom and knowledge the forum?

Nope. It was the way Tony phrased his reply.

…that does not a software engineer make

I suppose if Master Yoda was teaching Software Engineering he’d probably come out with something similiar, and we all know Yoda’s Wisdome score is off the scales.

With respect to the Deitlel & Deitel Phone-Book-Sized Text Books, he’d probably come out with something like this…

Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Deitel & Deitel, and a powerful ally it is.

And on the topic of guidelines, I’ll (reluctantly) admit SkyClad came out with a good point. Guidelines are there to help people avoid pitfalls. I didn’t mean to give the impression to Aceley (or anyone else) that these Old-Schoolers (Deitel, Preece, Sommerville) were past their sell-by date, and shouldn’t be listened to.

Of course you should pay them homage, and learn from their mistakes.

In the end yes, I’d recommend that you do a 4 year Comp Sci degree and go on from there.

Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things.

I checked out the Courses section of this website (gamedevelopers.ie, lol) and i looked for computer science undergraduate degrees…
I found one in Trinty, Dublin and one in Maynooth… Both are along the lines of Computer Science and Software Engineering…

I live in Tandragee at the momment, I got my GCSEs at Portadown College, and my A Levels at Armagh College (F.H.E)…

Im not fussed on moving away to live near Dublin, but those courses i looked up sounded very nice, im not sure about the maynooth course but the trinity course has not yet started and i was told by the department there that even when the course has started there will be vacanies to join a “senseable” time after it has started… if that makes sense.

I will have to researcg into Magee etc, but Dublin and Maynooth would be easier to travel to etc…

Me not being fussed on moving away and how late i have left this (this year) im not sure if it would be a good idea, as finding accomidation a job down there would be alot harder now :(

Any suggestions ?[/quote:11310165dd]
Aah, a friend of mine lives in Tandragee. She actually has to commute to Belfast every day for college! If you don’t want to move down south then there’s little point in talking yourself into it, but there’s certainly no harm in looking into it. Personally, I would consider doing a course that would allow you to get into QUB comp sci. I hear that it’s a very well taught degree with a good teaching staff. Am I right in saying that’s your closing option to home?

QUB have an open day on Thursday and Friday. If at all possible you should try to make it. It will give you a chance to meet the comp sci staff and decide if it’s for you and talk with them about how exactly you can get onto the course.

I suppose if Master Yoda was teaching Software Engineering he’d probably come out with something similiar, and we all know Yoda’s Wisdome score is off the scales.[/quote:d594dfcbe7]indeed. we bow down before his greatness

Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things.[/quote:d594dfcbe7]LOL

LOL indeed :D
One can criticise the new trilogy all one wants, Yoda still rules.

I just realised, you are from the North? Did you look into the courses in Derry and maybe the new one in Letterkenny?
I am not too sure about Letterkenny, since it’s starting this year, although they do have a normal computing course, you could give those a look.
Although it’s worth noting they do have pretty low requirement (from what I am told, your system baffles me, most of the time)
Derry seem to be pretty solid, from what I can see, I am sure jediboy will be happy to talk about them, seeing as he has been there (and Letterkenny)

Philippe

I believe we were having a similar discussion in the Education forum, and I was arguing there that knowing foreign languages (to a good level) is certainly useful IMHO.
Also, I am sorry to say (as I was myself a rather average Maths guy), Maths are vital, in the long run.

The reason Maths are so necessary is that your level in Maths is an indicator of your ability for problem solving, which is at the core of programming, no matter how you turn it.
Sadly, there aren’t many other subjects that indicate such abilities… except maybe languages (trying to get your idea across in a different language is really the same thing, whether it’s French, or C++)

Hope that makes sense?

Philippe

the Letterkenny course is good (disclaimer: was partially designed by my coleagues in Torc and was externally validated with IGDA input) – don;t know about requirements

the Univ of Limerick course seems good too and Carlow (also externally validated with IGDA input) is also well worth a look if you haven’t already

Aceley,

Not meaning to question your ability, but do you think you can handle the maths to begin with? A lot of the courses on offer have maths as a requirement because you need to be good at maths to obtain a solid grasp of programming. Games (especially graphics, physics, ai etc) is a step up again in terms of the complexity of maths involved. For the leaving cert only about 9% of people get a c in hons maths to progress to courses like cs, so one should consider the entry requirement as a sign of the type of mathematical work you will be faced with for the 4 year duration of a degree too.

Dave

I was arguing there that knowing foreign languages (to a good level) is certainly useful IMHO.[/quote:b4c8c193d8]
I agree with you there 100%, Philippe. Learning a major language like French or German can seriously improve the jobs you can take. When I get some spare time I want to make a serious effort to learn French so I have the option to work in say Brittany or Paris. Then there’s Switzerland (a country I’m very fond of) and Canada. Even still, I don’t see why a language should be an essential requirement for a computer science degree.

Have a look at this course Aceley and let us know what you think:

http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/courses/viewcourse.php?article=16

Also, are you convinced that programming is the area you want to go into? Have you explored level design, production or art? Might be worth looking at.

I must ask, just out of curiosity, what kind of stuff did you learn in Maths, for your leaving cert?
As a comparison, 10 years ago when I got mine, I was studying, let’s see, polynomial equations, derivatives, probabilities, matrices, series (progressions?), function analysis (finding roots, asymptotic values), trigonometry (polar, cartesian coordinates), barycentres, vectors, etc.
IIRC, we stopped short of integrals, elliptic/parametric curves, imaginary numbers (but those of us who had taken the Maths option, did those things)

A lot of that stuff was above my head, but thankfully, I was very good at analysis itself, which is really the only skill you need for programming.
A lot of people seem to think that it’s the Maths themselves that they need for programming, but that’s just a misunderstanding…
it’s like saying that to be an artist you need to know how to sculpt, draw, paint, carve. You don’t, you need to have an “artistic sensibility”.#

Same with Maths, you need to have the “scientific method”, not the Maths themselves.

Oh, how I ramble :oops:

Philippe

http://www.skoool.ie/skoool/examcentre_senior.asp?id=2091

Cheers Dave, well, so you guys are learning the same stuff (some of my memories were a bit vague, wasn’t sure if I had done differential/integrals and complex numbers, but I guess I must have then, uhuh).

So how on Earth are the students around me so bad at Maths (or more exactly, worse than me). It’s scary cos I had 30% average during my two years in France after the Leaving Cert… I was like the joker of the class, in Maths, only worth to be brought out to the board for a bit of comedic relief.
Ah the good old days :roll:

You’re obviously thinking through all the options so I’m sure you’ll be able to come to a mature choice. If you do maths at night can you think of what you could do during the day? Perhaps your college offers some sort of HND or foundation degree is computing. You could use that to possibly get into university. :)

Same with Maths, you need to have the “scientific method”, not the Maths themselves. [/quote:49fbbfd4c2]
Yes… but if you intend to work in games coding, the maths makes life a hell of a lot easier, plus you’re going to need it for the interview at the very least.

Working in QA isn’t really a route into a programming job. The only way it will help you is that you will gain contacts in the company and you’ll get a proper understanding of how the games industry works. Finding out how it all actually works from the inside is quite an education!
Although working in EA would be pretty much completely different from working for any other games company ( but I won’t go into that ;) )

[must resist anti-EA hijack]

:)

If there is one piece of advice you take from this thread, its this:

DONT let Omen start on an EA rant.

Dave

Sweet mother of god hes done it…

*runs*

http://www.skoool.ie/skoool/examcentre_senior.asp?id=2091%5B/quote:158236af83%5Di knew that site would come in handy one day!

And Omen’s quite right about QA not being a route into programming – production, yes; Design… maybe after years and years. But not Art or Programming. For these areas you need the requisite skills and there are NO shortcuts to getting them

On a separate but related note –
what do you guys think of 1 & 2 year courses like that provide a crash course in everything (i.e. programming, level design, game design, production, modelling & animation, and business).

Regardless of how good the course tutors & content are, are you likely to get a job in the industry? are you really prepared for a job in the industry?

answers on a postcard, please…

p.s. note the cunning lack of references to EA in the post above

Please note my reference to EA wasn’t about the quality of their games.
My reference is to do with the fact that EVERYTHING there will be in-house which isn’t always the way. Also the staff numbers will be a lot higher.

Regardless of how good the course tutors & content are, are you likely to get a job in the industry? are you really prepared for a job in the industry? [/quote:0d79be72b9]
Well, I would have thought that education wasn’t everything. You, as an employer, should be getting a CV and a demo. Based on what you see here, you’ll take it further or not. Surely someone without a degree in CS and nice demos should get an interview before a degree holder with sloppy demos. Should they both make it to interviews, it should the candidate that shows the greater understanding or the requirements of the job, ( programmer=coding style, maths, physics, ai…. , artist=well whatever they need), plus common sense and a friendly manner. Surely its these attributes that an employer looks for an not a degree ???
Or am I being naive?

Well, I would have thought that education wasn’t everything. You, as an employer, should be getting a CV and a demo. Based on what you see here, you’ll take it further or not. Surely someone without a degree in CS and nice demos should get an interview before a degree holder with sloppy demos. Should they both make it to interviews, it should the candidate that shows the greater understanding or the requirements of the job, ( programmer=coding style, maths, physics, ai…. , artist=well whatever they need), plus common sense and a friendly manner. Surely its these attributes that an employer looks for an not a degree ???
Or am I being naive?[/quote:c362978fa4]not at all…. you’re bang on, I would have thought. There will always be those with talent, drive and passion regardless of their education – general or specialist, 2 yrs or 3rs, Bsc or Msc

Weren’t you the one that asked the question and aren’t you activey involved in employing ?? Or was this just a retorical question??

On a separate but related note –
what do you guys think of 1 & 2 year courses like that provide a crash course in everything (i.e. programming, level design, game design, production, modelling & animation, and business).

Regardless of how good the course tutors & content are, are you likely to get a job in the industry? are you really prepared for a job in the industry?
[/quote:5ae5ed97e4]
It’s a good question. As you said, if you have the skills and the drive then you could make it into a studio without a degree. Of course, a lot of companies will pick someone has the skills, drive AND a degree.

I think short broad courses are fantastic for learning the essentials or honing your skills, the ICE course at NWIFHE is proof of giving students skills that employers want. But at the end of the day if the person next to you in line has the same level of talent as well as a degree… then he’ll probably get the job. A degree certainly doesn’t prove your abilities, but it gives the employer some confidence that you can finish what you started.

Hey,

do you mean ‘why would I use these different types?’ well the long and short of it (ha-ha, *cringes*) is, all about the fact that when using different data types for variables they are going to be going in an out of memory constantly it is best to use types which are suited to the task the variables will be used in so that you reduce the amount of memory used in a prog, so if you want to declare an integer and you know it will never be more than a two digit number you can declare it as a char, otherwise short or long or int, the same goes for a floating point number, depending on the precision you want from a calculation. The range merely shows the pos and neg limit of each data type so you can see what it is capable of representing. Hope that helps :)

My advice would be not to worry too much about that at the moment. If you go to the bottom of that page there’s an explaination of integers (int), floating point numbers(float) and characters and strings (char).
Shorts and longs are ints using more or less memory, so bigger or smaller values. Doubles are similar to floats.
For now, all you really need to worry about is int, float, char and bool.

Ayp,

char can be used to represent a single letter or an integer number from -128 to 128 if you need negative numbers or 0 to 255 if you are using all positive numbers.

short and long are specifically for integers which are going to be much larger positive and negative wise than char, int as you will not be using dos is the same length as long

The floatis when you need to represent numbers which are not whole (ie. integer) and as it would a bugger to have a fraction data type the floating point is used. double give greater precision and refers to the fact that it is made up of two words, float ia a single word, 8 bits in a byte, 4 bytes in a word, the long double is larger again

the wchar_t is to do with unicode which is a while away yet

any better :)

Weren’t you the one that asked the question and aren’t you activey involved in employing ?? [/quote:501f3a3191]yes, to both

Or was this just a retorical question??[/quote:501f3a3191]not at all. want to gauge people in the industry’s opinion and add some breadth to the debate

On a separate but related note –
what do you guys think of 1 & 2 year courses like that provide a crash course in everything (i.e. programming, level design, game design, production, modelling & animation, and business).

Regardless of how good the course tutors & content are, are you likely to get a job in the industry? are you really prepared for a job in the industry?
[/quote:5aa1ff0f18]

I’ll give my thicko reply; obviously depends what they wanted to do as a career…seems like it would be aimed at Producers if it covered everything, if it were a bit heavier on the business and managing of people side of things ofcourse :p

A course like that should be manatory for “game designers”, make the muppets appreciate that requests and whims actually TAKE TIME.

You know, the game pixies dont just drop from the sky to make the new things happen.

:)

True, true, but it is great now that we have the pixies, unfortnately it is not so nice when some are sacrificied to the Lode Controlling Demon and you get dead pixies :)

I’ll give my thicko reply; obviously depends what they wanted to do as a career…seems like it would be aimed at Producers if it covered everything, if it were a bit heavier on the business and managing of people side of things ofcourse :p[/quote:ccf8b46b4b]heresy!!

A course like that should be manatory for “game designers”, make the muppets appreciate that requests and whims actually TAKE TIME.

You know, the game pixies dont just drop from the sky to make the new things happen.

[/quote:ccf8b46b4b]LMAO…. brilliant

…I could have sworn we had a few pixies on our payroll

Idora:
I don’t understand exactly why you think it should be a *crash* course… I learnt C in one year. And all the other students doing my course after me. Of course, we had 4 hours a week, and of course, in France, we have something like 38 hours a week, not 25 :? I never understood this need to make things last so long.
Anyway, just to say that yes, this would be a great idea, isn’t it the idea behind the MSc in Letterkenny, for instance? Cos that’s what it look like, to me (well, to me it looks like a big opportunity to do what I’ve always been doing, but with people able to judge me, at last)

Aceley:
Actually, I would recommend you try to understand about the various types of variables right now. But let me do what I love, and try explain it to you :wink:
Essentially, it comes down to one essential problem: a computer only understand bits: one’s and zero’s…
Now if I show you this data 110010110101011011101100
tell me, how do you know what it means?
Some clever people will tell you it’s easy, it’s 32 bits, so it’s a long int. Or a float.
But how does the computer knows that? Well the computer doesn’t know. The computer only knows what those bits mean if you tell it how to read them in the first place.
So if I tell it that this is indeed a 32bit unsigned long int, it will interpret it as a number between 0 and 2^32 – 1 (Don’t worry about the -1)
However if I tell it that it’s a 32bit unsigned long int, suddenly the computer reads something completely different, a number between -2^31 and 2^31 – 1. (OK, I might be wrong about the exact values here, but that’s not the point).
Now if I tell it that these are in fact three char variables (8 bits each) we have the same problem happening, and again if I tell the computer that this is in fact a 32bit float… completely different numbers, and yet exactly the same bits!

The most straightforward way of interpreting bits is to convert straight from binary to decimal. If you see 10001000, and those bits are an unsigned char, then we know that the value is 1 * 2^7 + 1 * 2^3 = 136
However that’s just maths…
in Computing, we have devised cunning schemes so that those same bits can mean a completely different number, if we so wish. For instance, we could decide that the first leftmost bit represent the sign of the number (whether it’s negative, or positive).
So if 1 means this is a negative number then the value would be
– ( 1 * 2^3) = -8
A completely different number than 136, I’m sure you’ll agree.
As a side note, this is not the way it works, because then it would become very difficult to add two such binary numbers (and I am too rusty to remember the scheme exactly as I learnt it 9 years ago, besides it would probably just confuse you…)
And for real numbers, well, I suppose by now you understand there is a way to “encode” them, too.
It’s all a bit complicated, but if you want to scare yourself, check out the Wikipedia. It’s very well explained.

Now of course, you could encode text in those bits, but that’s yet another story (or maybe you can see how it could happen, if I have made my point) :wink:

Philippe

That was the simple explanation???

My one goes something like:
– an int is a simple number
– a float is a decimal number
– if the word ‘unsigned’ is used, it means the number can’t be negative.
– a string can store text, such as a sentence.
– a char stores a single character (one digit number, an upper or lower case letter etc)

Say, for example, you want to create a number. First, you make up a name for the variable (a variable is a catchall name for something that stores information – an int, float, char etc), and create like this:
int mySuperVariableName;

If you want to set a variable (int, float, string, char etc) to a value, then use the statement:

mySuperVariableName = 1; (or whatever you want to set it to)

The whole point of a high level language is that you dont have to know how the variables you use get translated into machine instructions. Sure, you can pick it up as you master a language, but it is far from necessary to know much of the above information when you are starting off.

Dave

– if the word ‘unsigned’ is used, it means the number can’t be negative.
[/quote:b985a5bdc4]

After two years of the Architecture module in college and hours messing with 8086 crap thats the simplist explanation of that I’ve ever heard! :D

:lol: Well, I didn’t say my explanation was simple, but it explains to you WHY we have types in the first place. Not what they are, but WHY on the bloody Earth we need to have all those weird named keywords.

If I didn’t lose you in the first few sentences, it should have (if you were somebody who has never programmed, but has enough Maths to understand what 2^32 means) made you understand that the reason we need types is so that we can tell the computer how to interpret and work with what would otherwise be meaningless bits.

And if you can understand this, shall I call it “deep”, concept, your brain is then ready, later on, to understand another fundamental concept that none of the students I have come across over the last 7 years seem to grasp: files are just the same!
A file is to bytes, what a variable is to bits, if you will. It’s a container, but if you don’t tell the computer how to interpret what’s inside, it’s just meaningless.
And that’s why we have file formats, file headers and the associated algorithms (and filenames, but that’s just make up, just because I rename my file from hello.txt to hello.jpg doesn’t mean I can suddenly see it in ACDSee).

Oh, I see, you are more confused now, ain’t you… sorry :oops:

As an exercise to you Skyclad, let me pretend I am a complete noob that just read your post:
sorry, but what’s an int, and what do you mean a “simple” number ? Do you mean an integer number like in Maths? But then what do you mean by Decimal? Isn’t that the same than integer?
I am looking at this C website, but I don’t see anything about strings… how come? They seem to use something called Arrays for that. So if I understand, I have to turn my letters into numbers, right? So A=1, B=2, something like that? Ah sorry, I see you mention Char, I suppose this stands for Character, right. But why can’t I put a whole, uh, string inside it, then? Wouldn’t that be simpler?
etc, etc.
I could go on like that for every single line. In fact, it’s approximately the kind of questions I had going through my head when I started reading my first book on C (I was 16, and I had been using QBasic since, I dunno, 12 at that time…)

Philippe

If, as Aceley was doing, you were looking at the website in question, it explains what integers, floating point numbers and character strings are at the bottom of the page, hence the simple explaination of how ints, floats and chars work sufficed.

omen: indeed, I apologise, I didn’t check the link before posting.
Still, after reading it, I can now confirm what I posted before. I am explaining why we have all those types. Not what they are, exactly.

Also I realise, as usual, I misunderstood “decimal”. My mathematical vocable in English as never been as good as in French, I am afraid :oops:

gizmo: well, I wonder how you can make that one not obvious o_O
You too had French lecturers? :wink: (my Maths lecturer always said “why make it simple when you can make it complicated?”)

2 ^ 32 = 2 to the power of 32

Aw… sorry. the ^ symbol is the usual symbol used in computers when noting “to the power of”.
So 2 ^ 32 means “2 to the power of 32”. (I hope that’s how you say it in English :lol: )

The reason I use this notation is that because it’s much more meaningful than writing 4294967295 (the value of 2^32)

Anyway, like I said, the explanation isn’t about the Maths, nor the values that can be contained in a given variable of a given type,
it’s about the fact that bits are bits are bits (as you say), and it’s up to you the programmer to tell the computer what they mean.
It’s all nice and well to learn char, int, float and being able to recite of by heart what values they can contain, but it’s much easier to know why they are there, why they exist. Because wait until they start talking about arrays… :wink:

Philippe

I much prefer the “get it something working and then understand the whys afterwards” approach :)

Everybody does… that’s the great problem.
Everybody wants to have things up and running, then when the whole thing comes crashing down nobody knows what the feck to do, cos nobody knows how the things work anymore. It’s like those new cars, they crash so much more rarely, but when they do, you need a freaking rocket scientist to get them working again! :?
And don’t get me started about those jokers I am working with… :evil:

If I weren’t naturally on the Light Side, computers would have long ago made me turn to the Dark: fear, anger and suffering. Much suffering. And the more I know computers and the more I hate the blasted contraptions, the more I wanna go back and finish the Fine Arts.

Philippe

When educating, it is important is that people have a solid understanding of what they need to know, not partial knowledge and complete information overload. Presenting people with information in a way that they understand will increase their knowledge, confidence and desire to continue far more than explaining a rake of information that they have no need of. A good teacher realises that just because he/she understands a concept, it is not automatically easy for someone else to understand it, nor does she need to explain everything about the concept to allow people make use of it.

And from the perspective of the company, it doesnt matter if your developer understands how he managed it if he delivers a working product on time.

Dave

:lol: that’s very funny, because I think exactly the same than you for the part about educating, although I think maybe we disagree on what “they need to know” is.

A good teacher realises that just because he/she understands a concept, it is not automatically easy for someone else to understand it[/quote:eacab42400]
That is a very deep truth, and I am happy you are aware of it. However many lecturers are not.
I must again point out at the number of terms that you used in your explanation that are completely alien to somebody who has never programmed, let alone used a computer (I assure you I have seen first years who had never *seen* a computer).
Yes what you explain is simple and it makes sense, it’s to the point, it’s practical. I don’t deny it. I just say in the long run it’s not enough.

You wouldn’t believe the number of students I’ve had to help in fourth year who didn’t seem to have a fucking clue…

nor does she need to explain everything about the concept to allow people make use of it.[/quote:eacab42400]
Indeed.

Let me give you an example of how I think of it.
They say if you teach a man to catch a fish, he’ll never go hungry.
So you call all those people to this fishing reserve, full of fishes. And you tell them, if you come here, we will teach you how to catch a fish. Here: this is a fish rod. Here, this is a bait. Here, that’s how you use it. After a while, your eager student catches his first fish. Well done! You are now a fisherman. So your student goes away, and proud of his sticker and his new shiny rod, goes try to find work with an old fisher man.
The old fisher man knows all the good spots, and sure enough, the young fisherman, thinking he knows all he needs to know, catches fishes aplenty.
Then one day, the old fisherman dies and the young fisherman must continue to feed the village… except there are no more fishes at the usual spot. And the young fisherman doesn’t know anything about all those different types of bait depending on different types of fishes, and what do you mean about the weather, and the time of the year, and…

…so he knows how to fish, but is he a fisherman? :roll:

Philippe

I almost forgot to comment on that one:

And from the perspective of the company, it doesnt matter if your developer understands how he managed it if he delivers a working product on time.
[/quote:a9b3828a93]
If you are an employer and that’s how you judge your programmers… well, let me put it to you nicely, I am sure you’ll find lots of eager employees :?

Philippe

If you are an employer and that’s how you judge your programmers… well, let me put it to you nicely, I am sure you’ll find lots of eager employees :?[/quote:8cf660bfa0]
I am a programmer, and I have interviewed people for programming positions. The people I am interested in are people who can deliver a working solution on time and on budget. I want practical competent people. I have no interest in people who cant deliver me the most elegant solution possible 2 weeks late and whose egos live in the clouds.

They dont make the company money.

As an exercise to you Skyclad, let me pretend I am a complete noob that just read your post:[/quote:8cf660bfa0]
Yes, lets pretend.

sorry, but what’s an int[/quote:8cf660bfa0]
My explanation: – an int is a (simple) number
Your explanation ( ignoring the 2 blatant errors in it)

Now if I show you this data 110010110101011011101100
tell me, how do you know what it means?
Some clever people will tell you it’s easy, it’s 32 bits, so it’s a long int. Or a float.
But how does the computer knows that? Well the computer doesn’t know. The computer only knows what those bits mean if you tell it how to read them in the first place.
So if I tell it that this is indeed a 32bit unsigned long int, it will interpret it as a number between 0 and 2^32 – 1 (Don’t worry about the -1)
However if I tell it that it’s a 32bit unsigned long int, suddenly the computer reads something completely different, a number between -2^31 and 2^31 – 1. (OK, I might be wrong about the exact values here, but that’s not the point).
Now if I tell it that these are in fact three char variables (8 bits each) we have the same problem happening, and again if I tell the computer that this is in fact a 32bit float… completely different numbers, and yet exactly the same bits! [/quote:8cf660bfa0]

and what do you mean a “simple” number ? Do you mean an integer number like in Maths?[/quote:8cf660bfa0]
You suggest that people understand ^ notation, binary, ints/long ints/floats/unsigned ints are, but are not capable of differentiating between the intended meaning of a “simple” and “decimal” number? (I actually meant whole number, but anyway). Please, please, please, draw a line on where your stance is and stick to it.

But then what do you mean by Decimal? Isn’t that the same than integer?[/quote:8cf660bfa0]
If you hadnt missed the point so many more times, this would really be the cream of the crop. If they dont know what an int(eger) is, how in gods name are they going to know what an integer is, and why it is different to a decimal?

I am looking at this C website, but I don’t see anything about strings… how come?[/quote:8cf660bfa0]
Quite right. As I’m sure you are aware, strings are C++ and Java data types. Which are the 2 languages that we have been talking about all thread long.

Ah sorry, I see you mention Char, I suppose this stands for Character, right. But why can’t I put a whole, uh, string inside it, then? Wouldn’t that be simpler?[/quote:8cf660bfa0]
Maybe its time to quote myself again, I need to regain some sanity:
– a char stores a single character (one digit number, an upper or lower case letter etc).

And just to make it absolutely clear, I should add an addendum to that:

King Arthur: How does it… um… how does it work?
Sir Lancelot: I know not, my liege.
King Arthur: Consult the Book of Deitel.
Brother Maynard: How to Program, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one.
Cleric: [reading] And Saint Attila raised the character array up on high, saying, “O Lord, bless this thy character array, that with it thou mayst cause great memory leaks, in thy mercy.” And the Lord did grin. And the programmers did feast upon the coffee and twinkies, and coke and snickers bars, and pot noodles and breakfast cereals, and cold chinese and large chu…
Brother Maynard: Skip a bit, Brother…
Cleric: And the Lord spake, saying, “First shalt thou shalt declare the Holy Pointer. Then shalt thou count to thirty-two, no more, no less. Thirty-two shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be thirty-two. Thirty-Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou thirty-one, excepting that thou then proceed to thirty-two. Thirty-Five is right out. Once the number thirty-two, being the correct number of bits for the intel x86 architecture, be reached, then thou assignest thy Holy Pointer towards thy character array, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
Brother Maynard: Amen.
All: Amen.
King Arthur: Right. One… two… thirty-five.
Galahad: thirty two, sir.
King Arthur: Three.
— A segmentation fault has occurred —
[/quote:8cf660bfa0]

They seem to use something called Arrays for that.[/quote:8cf660bfa0]
Please see the above conversation with King Arthur on why one should learn to use strings instead of character arrays before a student knows what a pointer is.

Dave

iostream.h is the file you need to instruct the compiler what to do when you use commands like ‘cout’ and ‘cin’. The error happens because the compiler doesnt seem to know where the file can be found.

In general, if you declare it like:

#include <iostream.h>

at the top of your program it should be able to find it.

If you have it like that and it still doesnt work, drop a post here with the name of the compiler you are using and your complete code.

Dave

The code itself is correct and should compile. Some things off the top of my head that might be causing the problem:

– did you create a new project or did you just open a new file and type the code in and try to compile?
– did you install visual studio to the c: or the e: ? ( i note the project you are writing is on the e: ) Try creating a project with whatever defaults microsoft offers you and see if you can compile it from there.
– Can you do a search on your hard drive for the “iostream.h” file. If you installed vc++ to an unusual directory, it night not know where to find it and you might have to tell it where it is.

This kind of crap is prett y normal when you are first getting off the ground, so dont worry about it too much. Programming takes much patience :)

Dave

Sure.

The c++ language is goverened by a standard which dictates what is and isnt allowed (called the ANSI standard). The

#include <iostream.h> syntax was replaced by

#include <iostream> using namespace std

in the standard – the second is the ‘correct’ way to include the files you need to get cout working (though the first should still work correctly too, just blame Microsoft i guess…).

At the end of the day they both do the same thing: include the files you need to get the project working.

Dave

Idora:
I don’t understand exactly why you think it should be a *crash* course… I learnt C in one year. And all the other students doing my course after me. Of course, we had 4 hours a week, and of course, in France, we have something like 38 hours a week, not 25 :? I never understood this need to make things last so long.
Anyway, just to say that yes, this would be a great idea, isn’t it the idea behind the MSc in Letterkenny, for instance? Cos that’s what it look like, to me (well, to me it looks like a big opportunity to do what I’ve always been doing, but with people able to judge me, at last)[/quote:e607add87b]Just to be clear, I was referring to 1,2, 3 yr courses where the student is introduced to everything – design, production, modelling & texturing, programming, and audio, etc. – and not 1, 2 or 3 yr courses that specialise in one discipline or the other

I want practical competent people. I have no interest in people who cant deliver me the most elegant solution possible 2 weeks late and whose egos live in the clouds. [/quote:643b345060]
Ay, I assumed as much. Don’t misunderstand me, I understand your position. And although I do strive to be “practical and competent”, I realise I am probably more one of those guys with their ego in the clouds. What can I say, at least I am aware of it :oops:
But that’s beside the point, you see. My problem is with all those programmers that have been taught poorly, but enough that they get a job. Then I end up having to patch up their shitty job. Or at least that has been my experience so far. Which is probably why I just like to go back and stufy and hide in the wonderful world of Academia. Where the world of Industry is an old wife’s tale your students here about…
until this recent notion that student should be thaught only so they can get a job. Bullshit, that’s what it is. However I see that I fail to get my point across, so I’ll leave it. I appreciate where you come from, but I think you don’t see where I am coming from. Maybe I am trying to hard.

On the subject of your explanations, I must apologise, for I realised my imperfect English (yes, even after 16 years :? ) mixed with my feigned ignorance, well, kinda confused things too much. I always assumed that “integer” was the word used in Maths to described a whole number (one that is of the D set, IIRC), as the word in French is “entier”, which means “integer”. Which is what I assumed you must talking about when you where referring to when you said “decimal” number :oops:
Oh, let’s forget about it, your explanation where concise and to the point. A very good things nowadays.
You’ll forgive me for the “unsigned” error and the fact that, yes, there could be 4 chars in 32 bits. As you guessed, I made all that on the fly, nor did I read myself too much afterwards. I do that a lot. Thing is, I usually do that speaking, and when I see I’m not getting in, I can quickly switch to something else. Same for making analogies and things, I always end up making my point, even if it seems all tedious to someone that already know all that stuff.
My point was that I was trying to make the lad wonder why we have all those “types” things. And why on Earth there are so many of them.
But anyway.

But I just have to point out. You see, when you read my explanation, you understood all those “int” and “float” and programming mumbo jumbo (you’ll have to forgive me if I assumed that anybody who had watched the news during the last ten years knows what a “bit” is. Also I assumed that ^ was a sort of ASCII way of saying “upperscript”, like _this_ would indicate italics). Whereas somebody not knowing what I was on about would precisely skip those parts and hopefully understand the fact that different names produce different results, despite the same bit content. Hopefully.

But anyway, I am rambling on again, and as you so aptly point out, I am sure my employers would be displeased if I ended up two weeks behind.

Oh, and thanks for the Monty Python like joke, nice one :lol:
I am gonna save that one.

BTW, you never answered, is he a fisherman, that eager young wielder of fishing rod? :wink:
I guess he is, eh?

Philippe

until this recent notion that student should be thaught only so they can get a job. Bullshit, that’s what it is.[/quote:c826c7cb18]
Completely disagree.
I think that students should be given the learning material and the assistance to be competent coders. Its up the students themselves to learn, practise and push themselves to actually become a competent/good/great coder. You can’t blame a uni with a good course if a student can’t do a job because they were lazy, its the student’s own fault. Maybe some lecturers are more interested in getting the better results, but only if their students show the same interest.

Well, forgive me if I sound so cynical :?
I appreciate I am biased, as I usually see the students when they are in need of help, not when they are kicking ass. I see them when they can’t understand a bloody word of what the lecturer is saying and they need somebody to translate :-/
And essentially, I see them as the victims of lecturers who couldn’t be bothered anymore. And I don’t think that’s acceptable.

I think that students should be given the learning material and the assistance to be competent coders.
[/quote:e0b8d59ae1]
Yes.

Its up the students themselves to learn, practise and push themselves to actually become a competent/good/great coder.[/quote:e0b8d59ae1]
I agree with the spirit: you rip what you sow.

You can’t blame a uni with a good course if a student can’t do a job because they were lazy, its the student’s own fault.[/quote:e0b8d59ae1]
Agreed again, but the way I see it, if the uni were doing their job, somebody who didn’t, in fact, have the necessary skills to be a good programmer wouldn’t get their freaking diplomas in the first place.
That is what scares/annoys me. Good lord, if the medicine schools start on this trend, I don’t even want to imagine how things are going to get!
The lazy students shouldn’t be able to even get a job in Computing, should they? Well, that sounds a bit harsh, I suppose. But if they were more qualified at something else? What if they realised that in first year, rather than after getting that shiny BSc in Computing?

Maybe some lecturers are more interested in getting the better results, but only if their students show the same interest.[/quote:e0b8d59ae1]
OK, I just deleted a page of rambling… there is no point in trying to explain myself (no offense to you personally, I just know I can’t get my point across concisely enough in writing)
Let me put it this way: when both sides are doing something wrong, somebody has got to do some sort of first step to fix things.
(Again, maybe it’s me being in a situation where I only see the worst side of the whole story, maybe there is nothing in need of repair)
And the way I see it, usually, it’s the more mature, responsible person that does that: in this case the lecturers. Most students are still kids, or unsure about their future, in my experience. And expecting thirty or so persons to suddenly turn all eager, well now come on… much easier for a one lecturer to change his attitude, IMHO.

This whole culture of mediocrity as being acceptable (and I don’t mean the Irish, please. I mean in general, it’s becoming the same in France) is completely alien to me, revolting, even. Maybe it’s because I have been harassed by me elitist French lecturers for so long? Maybe I can’t understand why people seem to all fall in this apathetic state of mind?
Or maybe I am just a fool, after all, it’s not like I I achieved much, myself.
And who cares, eh? I suppose that’s the one good thing about general apathy, I can blend in no problem :roll:

Philippe

I see that there is quite a few ppl that back Idora and all his comments are from the same general area as where he is from (ie the north west).

Which leads me to my next question how many of them work for the same company, and how many are not employed in the games industry but know him personally.

:roll:

Which leads me to another question where do all the admins come from majority prob the north west.

Sorry about my delays in posting but i only have access to a computer with internet access a few days a week at times.

Allanon_Brooks:
I for one do not know the people around this board personally (except for jediboy, but I try to keep that quiet, usually), although i do live in Donegal.
I am not an industry professional (God forbid), but I have had an interest in games and programming for as long as I have known computers (around 18 years, now).
Forgive me, but I am not sure what point you are trying to make, could you explain where you are going with your remarks?
It’s not like the people on this board are trying to hide the fact that they are familiar with each others. Isn’t that the point of a board, anyway?

Philippe

I’ve worked for Core Design in Derby for the past year, working on my second game ( I hope you’ll consider that to be professional enough )

Forgive me, but I am not sure what point you are trying to make, could you explain where you are going with your remarks?
It’s not like the people on this board are trying to hide the fact that they are familiar with each others. Isn’t that the point of a board, anyway?[/quote:f6c4815fd7]he’s merely continuing his tirade against me personally, phillipe

and to answer his question – none of the other moderators are from north west, and there’s 1 other regular Torc poster (Pete) and a handful of irregular posters

I’ve worked for Core Design in Derby for the past year, working on my second game ( I hope you’ll consider that to be professional enough )[/quote:594d868fc9]

Similarly im an industry professional (although for about 2 weeks), but dunno if that reaches ye’re high level of “professionalism”..

Is it just me or has this place really got negitive and spiteful in the last few weeks. Seems to be alot more arguments on the boards. what happened to the argument of DS vs PSP and EA vs the world.

Is it just me or has this place really got negitive and spiteful in the last few weeks. Seems to be alot more arguments on the boards. what happened to the argument of DS vs PSP and EA vs the world.[/quote:28d914992d]

Bah….perhaps it’ll all be better after a few jars on friday night

I’ve been quiet busy recently and haven’t had the chance to set my typing-fingers onto a good debatey thread, although there seems to be less of those probing questions lately…

Bah I hate EA *Shakes fist at the sky*

Speaking of EA……i’ll just go start a new thread now…

peter_b
Is it just me or has this place really got negitive and spiteful in the last few weeks. Seems to be alot more arguments on the boards.[/quote:db5e21abe5]

Well, I can’t really say how the board has evolved, but honestly you need a bit of arguing once in a while, otherwise this might as well be a gay friendfinder website with everybody kissing everybody else’s ass…

Anyway, who cares about EA when you could be talking about “You will be assimilated” Hasbro.

Philippe

The point he’s making is that they’re not arguments, but more recently we’ve seen threads resort to personal attacks on long standing members of these forums. This is a place for Irish developers and enthusiasts to talk about game development and the many facets within, not a place to attack some one. For me this place has always been a source of support and encouragement for its members, if you think that makes this site anything less that’s your problem.

Not a problem, no. Just saying it’s no big deal that people get attacked.
Usually it’s a good sign, even. In the words of Gandhi:
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”.
I wish they’d fight me sometimes, but I think they probably still at the laughing at me stage, unfortunately.

:wink:

Philippe

Hahaha…excellent post.

The point he’s making is that they’re not arguments, but more recently we’ve seen threads resort to personal attacks on long standing members of these forums. This is a place for Irish developers and enthusiasts to talk about game development and the many facets within, not a place to attack some one. For me this place has always been a source of support and encouragement for its members, if you think that makes this site anything less that’s your problem.[/quote:180195fff2]

i don’t think it should matter how long someones been on the board when it comes to “personal attacks”.

I only meant it to emphasize my point, I’d agree there’s no cause for ever reaching a personal level, if you want flame wars there’s plenty of other forums on the net.

It does rankle somewhat when the integrity of someone working as a producer in one of the island’s very few games companies and head of igda ireland has his ‘professionalism’ questioned by someone who mentions nothing of their own gaming qualifications…

are you not used to it? I thought begrudging succesful people was some sort of national past time, around here.
Take it all with a laugh, that’s what I say.
Anyway, it’s not a flame war until someone compares the opposite side to Nazi :wink:

Philippe

Hey, it doesn’t bother me much, I’m not involved.
You just get the feeling that maybe thats not right…
Besides, who said idora is successful :)

true, true.
Maybe it’s just because it’s a forum, I suppose. You see someone being annoying so you can’t help but react. We are all the same, I guess.
At least on the IRC I could use /ignore. Best command ever.

Why can’t we all just attend one of these shindigs (sorry philippe, no french allowed.) and just FIGHT CLUB it out till there’s no more arguing…

Actually, if we are gonna have a FIGHT CLUB, or a drunken version…PINT CLUB perhaps, you most certainly are invited Philippe…

Ah I’ve always found /kick of /kb far more useful when arguing in IRC, the optional leaving messages are also a good way to make sure you get the last word in! :lol:

Hey that’s great to hear :)
Well, next stop the Hangman, game, I’d say.
As for the languages, don’t worry, the Devil is always in the details, I always say. As long as you get the big picture, you are probably doing fine, the rest is just practice.

Philippe

Just for you Aceley ;)
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68872,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2

I dont think he meant to call you a kid. If that’s what the sad little face means…

If you want to be a good game developer, board games are the key…

well, it’s relevant to Game Design.
Plus it’s kinda a cool idea for a game, I think :P
anyway…

Philippe