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October 21, 2004 at 10:37 am #3536
Last week it was Halo 2, now its GTA:SA…
Are we just going to have it live with the fact that if you’ve got a big game, you’ve got a very high probability that its going to be pirated before your release date?
October 21, 2004 at 12:19 pm #15253
don’t forget half life 2!
leaks are not really a big deal, because in the end when it is released it will be copied! the poeple that will get the leaked copy would have got a pirate copy anyway at some stage. the only thing is that info about the game can be released (like in halo’s case), but again its only going to be nerds (like us) that will go online to hunt this info/images down as it would be illegal for a mag to publish it. the industry is mass market and only a small amout, have chiped console and go hunting around the net for the games!
personally i think if games were cheaper pirating would not be as bad (ever seem a pirate of a buget pc game! )
October 21, 2004 at 12:52 pm #15254
leaks are not really a big deal, because in the end when it is released it will be copied! the poeple that will get the leaked copy would have got a pirate copy anyway at some stage. [/quote:ab9623f691]
That in my mind is very pesimistic of you DarkSaviour, and I imagine that your presumptions are false, in so as that People who might “come into” a copy of a leaked game would not nessicarily buy a pirate version come release. I say this because some of my friends who do not buy pirate cames did come accross ‘leaked’ versions of both Doom 3 and HL2. They were so eager to play the game that they were willing to turn a blind eye to what they were doing, but they did insist that had they the oppertunity to buy the official game over a pirate version that they would purchase the official one evry time, I think this ‘leak’ epidemic is more serious than some people care to realize.
October 21, 2004 at 12:57 pm #15255
As for the price of games going down…thats never going to happen. The price of games has not kept up with the raise in inflation over the years, so they are relatively cheap these days, considering the cost of production. The low cost of games is why so many companies go bust…because their low sales don’t cover the high costs. You have to sell quite a few copies just to break even these days.
October 21, 2004 at 1:13 pm #15256
of course there are those big fans that want to just play it, and of course they buy it when in comes out! but they are very few compared to those that download for keeps! (its the same people that come to forums looking a site for iso’s that are now boasting about having halo 2)
as for the price of games, at the moment the game industry takes in the same sort of money (more?) than the music and film. but it has a far smaller user base! thats why games are dear compared to other industrys! but surely as the user base gets bigger the price is going down!
we foget as a industry we are competeting with the music and film industry (as Entertainment ), and at moment it cheap to buy a album or go/buy a movie!
i really think this is true as xtravision are giving a lot more space to game now, renting is a cheap way to play game (short term)
also in the long term development cost have to come down, i think middleware will help this ( maybe XNA is the future, i ment to ask about XNA at awakeings)
October 21, 2004 at 3:26 pm #15258
just read there about XNA sounds like a very good move. gonna save alot of coding id imagine.
October 21, 2004 at 3:51 pm #15259
at the moment the game industry takes in the same sort of money (more?) than the music and film[/quote:1e7ae7bb04]
I don’t know people keep saying it, cos it just isn’t true…
Games have a shelf life of maybe a month, huge games like Halo, GTA, Zelda, have a bit longer. Thats it. No other merchandising, no other way to make money.
Music gives you singles, albums, concerts and lots of other miscellaneous bits of merchandising.
Movies…box office, pay for view, dvd, video, tv rights, soundtracks, the list goes on and on.
The money is getting closer in the first iteration, for games, 1st month on shelf, for movies this is box office sales.
After that, games make squat…a bit here and there on budget release. Movies make most of their money in the second stage
October 21, 2004 at 3:56 pm #15260
Cross-platform dev kits are indeed something to consider, but it’s like when your friend shows you something new he found in Max, you kind of sgrug and say “humf, I could have figured that out eventually”, I imagine Sony and the like secretly congregating in a corner mumbling the words “humf, we could have done that eventually”. Nevertheless it will be interesting to see what happens at next years E3…
October 21, 2004 at 4:07 pm #15261
I’m with Omen and Omega’s Dust on this one… the retail price of games has not kept pace with inflation… and there are rumours in the trade press at the mo about the possiblity of games going UP as dev costs are increasing and not going down…
The savings made by using middleware get spent on higher production values and/ore more R&D on the areas of tech that aren’t covered by middleware or that will provide innovation or some other differenitator in an increasingly crowded market place. The number of games released each year is going up and is outpacing the growth of the market – all of this despite studio closures all over the place (I heard this morning that another well-known and respected developer has gone to the wall (can’t say who as it’s not public knowledge as yet))
As for the piracy issue, I have only one thing to say on that – if you and your mates had just sweat blood and tears (not to mention the possiblity of adding in your own hard-earned cash) for X no. of years over a title close to your hearts, how would you feel if some tosser cracked it/leaked it over the Net and ruined the experience for countless others?
October 21, 2004 at 4:14 pm #15262
I don’t know people keep saying it, cos it just isn’t true…
i one of the keynote speakers said it a awakenings :rolleyes:
but of course you right, every industry is different and with a movies they have many ways to sell a product, as u listed.
its a shame that a game has to “make it” when it is first released. (having said that prince of persia was a exception to that rule). there is game rentals (which seems to be getting popular, i have no stats, just a observation), budget (as u said), and some merchandising (everyone got a sonic doll….right? )
its seem the games industry kind of puts all its eggs in one basket :/
as for the price of games, your average non-gamer will not want to buy the latest console and the latest cool game at these prices! i think it will be a long time till videogames are excepted like other media like music and films.
October 21, 2004 at 4:24 pm #15263
just to clarify in the whole ‘games make more than movies’ thang…
games have been a tier 1 media (books, movies, music… and now games) for the past three years or more
the 13% of games that break even (500,000 units approx. or more) – or (god forbid!) actually make a profit – make more money than most albums do… the games industry as a whole (hardware and software) has made more money than domestic box office sales (that’s sales in the States only… no international releases, DVD or video sales or rental… no merchandising, soundtrack spin offs, making of shows, novel and toy tie-ins, etc.) for the past few years
and the commonly accepted window of opportunity for game sales is 6 weeks all year around – except the games which are released after mid-November – as the this is the last opportunity to capitalise on the Q4 sales rush for Christmas
October 21, 2004 at 4:30 pm #15264
those games sales include ones that are rented too….. thanks for clearing that up.
i thought ‘games make more than movies’ sounded too good to be true! ;)
…how would you feel if some tosser cracked it/leaked it over the Net and ruined the experience for countless others[/quote:741b6ec145]
people see these publishers as very rich, they can afford it…. they don’t think of the poor developers are the ones thay really suffer!
October 21, 2004 at 4:36 pm #15265
those figs also include secondhand games – a growing and worrying trend at retail
people see these publishers as very rich, they can afford it…. [/quote:fc9f3b6024]
what those boyos forget is that ALL that money that publishers make goes to funding the dev of new games!! would you rather a pirated, unpolished, unfinished copy of HalfLife 2… or have your money go towards the NEXT HalfLife/Halo/Zelda??
October 21, 2004 at 4:45 pm #15266
btw i hope i don’t get the impression i support leaks! i very much against! i just saying because we get a lot of “newbies” looking leaks all the time at dcemu.co.uk, of course any topic like that is closed and censored.
i getted mental images of tony getting very red faced and shouting a spittingg at the screen! :D
October 21, 2004 at 6:05 pm #15268
i getted mental images of tony getting very red faced and shouting a spittingg at the screen![/quote:25e2f9c6c8] naw, not quite…. just when you’ve been working in software as long as i have (old man kelly… don’t say a word, Kearney!) the laissez-faire attitude towards software piracy gets on your wick a bit… and it’s not as if the games racket doesn’t have enough challenges as it is…
anyway, that’s my rant for the week out of the way!
October 21, 2004 at 11:06 pm #15269
it one of the keynote speakers said it a awakenings [/quote:b757ed284f]
Yeah, people in respected positions keep saying things like this and have big Hollywood and Games debates and these debates usually end up with the conclusions that the hollywood setup is great and implementing in games would be great, however hollywood has had some much more time to big itself into its current form and oh isn’t the games industry so young, but we should strive for it. People leave thinking, “yeah, wow, thats a great idea, we shouyld get some of that”. Get back to the office and the publisher comes calls and says they need a playable demo ready in 4 weeks. Demo screws up schedules due to things being half done in order to get them looking okay for the demo and them going back at a later stage to do them properly. Suddenly you’re behind schedule and all thoughts of hollywood are out of your head nad meeting the next milestone is more important.
Seems to be one of these “lots of talk, very little action” areas.
Comparing games to hollywood seems to be a good way to attract media interest in games too as for non-gamers can relate to it too, so its becoming a common phrase to gain interest.
Thats my thoughts on that area anyway…..
October 21, 2004 at 11:07 pm #15270
You can always rely on “old man kelly” to come up with some facts and figures!
Been hearing a few rumours too….
October 22, 2004 at 9:04 am #15276
… and there are rumours in the trade press at the mo about the possiblity of games going UP as dev costs are increasing and not going down…[/quote:f0718bf9b2]
In this case, this is only going to compound the problem.
The way I see it, leaked games are a very minor problem at or around leak time, since the number of “earliest-illegal adopters” (read: P2P scavengers) are economically inconsequential.
It’s the very few amongst these very few who have criminal connections and are at the source of the underground production of illegal copies who are the real problem – because like it or not, and all arguments in this thread considered (to be very good), your average punter who has access to pirate copies for 10% or so of the shelf price will always choose the cheaper option (because his disposable income is finite, whereby cheaper option = more consumption altogether).
…and all the better if he’s got “told by a mate about Kazaa, Bit-Torrent or eDonkey” and he susses out that he can actually roll his gaming consumption cost into the broadband connection monthly fee. :mad:
The savings made by using middleware get spent on higher production values and/ore more R&D on the areas of tech that aren’t covered by middleware or that will provide innovation or some other differenitator in an increasingly crowded market place.
I’m still not seeing any developers filing IPR applications (trademarks, patents, designs), so I’m not sure I’d subscribe to this “R&D increased spending” statement. So I’d venture that this R&D spending corresponds to developers re-inventing the wheel (but then again XNA should help tremendously in this respect…unless it goes MSX-y)…
The number of games released each year is going up and is outpacing the growth of the market – all of this despite studio closures all over the place [/quote:f0718bf9b2]
Would “sequelitis” have anything to do with this? :D
This is a great thread, guys – all the more so since I’m marginally concerned, professionally speaking (we are talking about misappropriation of IPR, really). Leakage and ensuing piracy are, IMHO, an economical motivation (come on, here – would at a CD duplicating plant is gonna risk their job just so they can boast on a Forum to be the first leaker/player of Halo2?).
But arguments based on games having remained/become cheap in light of inflation are, IMHO, misplaced because the propensity to consume has increased dramatically in parallel with the apparent stagnation of game prices: they’re no more expensive than 5 years ago -true- but:
_there is much more leisure time (to fill with activites, most of which are payable in one way or another),
_confining ourselves to videogames, there are many more must-play titles
_but not that much more disposable income in proportion (referring to movies, for instance: have a look at some statistics about the resurgence of movie-going over the past 3 years or so, and have a look at the curve price of a cinema ticket vs inflation – startling!).
October 22, 2004 at 9:23 am #15277
October 22, 2004 at 9:41 am #15278
Game’s getting big for their boots, conceded – UK/Ireland are lacking what I’d call “mid-size indies”: good enough geographical spread & titles carried, but “more gentle” on the trade-in prices than Game.
When I was back in Rotherham, there was a store of an up-&-coming indie chain – can’t remember the name, but their ‘colors’ were blue & silver, and they were carrying all sorts (DC, NES, SNES, MD, etc.), they’ve been the talk of MCV every now and then this year. Now these guys were good – I didn’t feel as ripped-off doing a trade-in as I would have if I’d done same with Game or EB (before they became GAME themselves).
In theory, they’re not really at liberty at re-sell without the IPR owner say-so, you know (this is going hypothetical and business/lega-mumbo-jumbo: skip if you get bored, but don’t flame please ;) ):
when consumers buy a game (whatever the media: DVD, CD, cart, even an online download), what they’re really buying is the “right to use the Intellectual Property” on the media (e.g. process the copyrighted code on their home console/PC & play the game): what they own is the disc, what they never own is the contents of the disc.
Which is why consumers are not allowed to sell copies of the game themselves: they would be infringing the sole right of the Intellectual Property owner to copy this IP and sell it.
So (stretching, but I’m kinda developing the argument as I go), the consumer is not really at liberty to sell the contents on the media back to anyone, e.g. back to a retailer – it’s a wonky argument, I know, but if the consumer has made & kept a copy of the original media before trading in at the retailer, there’s definitely a case in which the retailer is a contributing infringer when he subsequently re-sells the original media to another punter.
… Food for thoughts.
October 22, 2004 at 11:39 am #15282
When I was back in Rotherham, there was a store of an up-&-coming indie chain – can’t remember the name, but their ‘colors’ were blue & silver, and they were carrying all sorts (DC, NES, SNES, MD, etc.), they’ve been the talk of MCV every now and then this year[/quote:a084cd593f]
They’ve a branch in Derby….marginally cheaper than Game.
October 22, 2004 at 11:43 am #15283
i find the cheapest place seems to be symths toys(at least in cork).. always got the new release game at least 5euro cheaper often up to 10 euro.
i remember i pre-ordered doom3 with Game and i paid i think 50 euro and the following day after the release they dropped the price to 45euro.. if they can likely drop 5 euro in a day they must be doing a huge mark up on games. robbing bunch
October 22, 2004 at 11:56 am #15284
I’m still not seeing any developers filing IPR applications (trademarks, patents, designs), so I’m not sure I’d subscribe to this “R&D increased spending” statement.[/quote:016aff84ca] Ah yes, but developers NOT registering or applying for IP patents does not necessarily equate to the R&D not being done…
As per our discussion at the last Shindig, Steph, most software developers (never mind games developers) neither understand the patent application process, can afford to devote the resources to following it through or simply don’t see how they can exploit it sufficiently to justify the ROI – a shortsighted view at best…
October 22, 2004 at 11:59 am #15285
Right….after a second read….
So what you are saying Steph is that Game buys the rights to sell the IP. They sell it to the consumer. Consmers then selling back to Game are breaking the law, as they don’t have the right to sell the contents. Then Game are breaking the law for selling the contents that they don’t actually have the rights to resell as its already been sold.
Am I right?
Surely they must have worked out some legal wranglings to get around this ? Else surely people like EA and MS woul be suing there asses.
October 22, 2004 at 12:38 pm #15287
October 22, 2004 at 1:29 pm #15288
Resailers are making a big profit, but they are already taking a nice chuck of the profits from the original sale of the game. Non of this second hand sale cash is making it back to the dev companies.
October 22, 2004 at 11:09 pm #15295
October 27, 2004 at 12:02 pm #15328
Using leaks for publicity ?
October 27, 2004 at 12:12 pm #15329
October 27, 2004 at 12:12 pm #15330
sounds like a plan!!
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