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This topic contains 29 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  peter_b 10 years, 11 months ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #5564

    Skyclad
    Participant

    I’d like to know if I am wrong in thinking something related to women entering the games industry.

    Hypothetical situation: Let’s suppose 40 people apply for a games development job, 2 of whom are female. After a brief qualification filter, 20 remain, one of whom is female. Not having the time to interview all 20 candidates, all of which are roughly equally likely to fill the job suitably (based on cv), 5 are picked. Is the female more likely or less likely than others to be called to interview?

    My view is that she is more likely to get a callup.

    (disclaimer: I am speaking in a very broad sense, and my opinion is not represented here, only my perceived understanding of the world)

    For bonus marks, part 2:
    Qualifying with your answer to the above, would you agree with:

    In order to expand the interest in playing games within the female segment of the market, more women need to be involved in the decisions that contribute to making the games themselves (taken, in part, from here).

  • #33476

    peter_b
    Participant

    I reckon you’d be right but would vary alot on the company, ppl etc doing the interviewing.

    IMO I would say at the 20 interviewees if both girls were as good as the rest, both would be called. After all if their all equally as good, why not interview women for your company. The industry is already too heavily loaded with lads. For example, we currently only have girl as a programmer and one as an artist. (total studio size being approx 35). Although im told our women coders are increasing by one early october.

    Also alot of banks etc work schemes were they have a quota which they most meetl with a certain amount of women, men, black,white, asian etc.. Its all part of maintaining equality\equal opportunties in the work place.

    As for agreeing with the policy, why not. If your the best canidate you should get the job simple as that, no matter who or what you are.

  • #33479

    aphra
    Keymaster

    my question would be why are they not applying?

    Aphra.

  • #33481

    Idora
    Participant

    my question would be why are they not applying?

    Aphra.[/quote:123f046b26]ditto

    [ Dave, your cunning plan to start another controversy seems to be failing!! You’ll have to try harder]

  • #33482

    aphra
    Keymaster

    I also got asked by a student in the US last week why most of the academic stuff written about the conditions and cultures of production in the games industry was being done by female academics!! There are exceptions, but not that many..

    Aphra.

  • #33483

    Max Marshall
    Participant

    I also got asked by a student in the US last week why most of the academic stuff written about the conditions and cultures of production in the games industry was being done by female academics!! There are exceptions, but not that many..

    Aphra.[/quote:df01517fd6]

    It must be a good way to meet men?

  • #33485

    Idora
    Participant

    I also got asked by a student in the US last week why most of the academic stuff written about the conditions and cultures of production in the games industry was being done by female academics!! There are exceptions, but not that many[/quote:11ce8b79a3]

    It must be a good way to meet men?[/quote:11ce8b79a3]
    LMAO… genius

  • #33486

    Nooptical
    Participant

    But do most women want to meet men who are obsessed with videogames?

  • #33487

    aphra
    Keymaster

    no comment (since I have interviewed loads of you!)

    Aphra.

  • #33488

    Skyclad
    Participant

    As for agreeing with the policy, why not. If your the best canidate you should get the job simple as that, no matter who or what you are.[/quote:3416cd6a5f]
    Because at its lowest level, it’s making a decision based on gender :)

    my question would be why are they not applying?[/quote:3416cd6a5f]
    Reply with a question, tut tut. :)
    2 issues here lead me to think in different directions. Firstly, games aren’t being designed for teenage women, which makes them lose interest at key formative years of their lives (16-18ish, when they choose their college courses). This is obviously due to a lack of designers having the understanding necessary to tackle that part of the market.

    The second option is that the vast majority of games require a win/lose concept, which suits the more combative nature of the male gender. In this situation, it’s far less likely that women will *ever* be as interested in games as men are.

    Dave, your cunning plan to start another controversy seems to be failing!! You’ll have to try harder[/quote:3416cd6a5f]
    That’s because people are skirting the issue (as is always likely to happen regarding this subject…). I want proper replies dammit :)

    Edit: That includes you Aphra! :)

  • #33489

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    I dont think we need more women in games. Seriously.

    Women generally dont play any form of games (except mind games hoho), so why should we be worried that they are not playing videogames.

    I wish we had more women in work, as it helps the dynamics of the place (so every other word out of our mouths is not ‘gay’)

  • #33490

    Skyclad
    Participant

    Aye. Maybe the best answer is to quit being apologetic about it being a male dominated industry and point out that it’s better that way :evil: :twisted:

    Dave

  • #33491

    Max Marshall
    Participant

    people are skirting the issue [/quote:e7c7e9a552]

    Is that meant to be a pun?

  • #33496

    Idora
    Participant

    plus, if there were more women in games dvelopment Kyotokid wouldn’t have to spend his time trawling the internet for women who like game!! http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/forums/viewtopic.php?p=27584#27584

  • #33497

    omen
    Participant

    1. I think she would be called for the interview, but she’d be less likely to get the job.

    2. Yes, I think we should have more women in the industry, not necessarily just to expand the female side of the market, but to help diversify the entire games catalogue.

  • #33498

    krudd
    Participant

    plus, if there were more women in games dvelopment Kyotokid wouldn’t have to spend his time trawling the internet for women who like game!! http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/forums/viewtopic.php?p=27584#27584[/quote:3ee70f14ed]

    HA!!

  • #33499

    feral
    Participant

    Is the female more likely or less likely than others to be called to interview? [/quote:96358d5788]

    Depends on the company. For a larger company, probably more likely, as some HR depts have a policy of trying to balance genders/racers etc when all else is equal (some even do this when its not, quotas etc).

    1. I think she would be called for the interview, but she’d be less likely to get the job. [/quote:96358d5788]
    Omen, I’m curious as to why exactly do you think less likely to get the job?

    IMO I would say at the 20 interviewees if both girls were as good as the rest, both would be called. After all if their all equally as good, why not interview women for your company. [/quote:96358d5788]
    This is a frequent debate. It is discrimination on sex, as skyclad says, which many consider fundamentally wrong.

    Also alot of banks etc work schemes were they have a quota which they most meetl with a certain amount of women, men, black,white, asian etc.. Its all part of maintaining equality\equal opportunties in the work place. [/quote:96358d5788]
    Such a policy can be a particularly dangerous thing in what’s usually a ruthless meritocracy, as it can undermine the merits of the candidate that eventually gets chosen, if they happen to be in a minority. Bad feedback consequences.

    In order to expand the interest in playing games within the female segment of the market, more women need to be involved in the decisions that contribute to making the games themselves (taken, in part, from here).
    [/quote:96358d5788]
    A lot of people would agree with this, and in fact, it’s quite common to read this sort of thing in online ‘women in games’ articles.

    It implicitly assumes that women will be better at making games for women than men will be. Is this a reasonable assumption? Is this as sexist assumption? What are the consequences?
    If we can preferentially hire a female candidate (designer, artist, whatever) to work on a game whose target audience is mainly female, can we then therefore preferentially hire a male candidate (designer, artist, whatever) to work on a game whose target audience is mainly male?
    (keyword obviously being preferentially)

    Is this a dangerous path to go down?

  • #33508

    Skyclad
    Participant

    1. I think she would be called for the interview, but she’d be less likely to get the job. [/quote:48e6c15f10]
    Omen, I’m curious as to why exactly do you think less likely to get the job?
    [/quote:48e6c15f10]
    Doubly so :)

  • #33510

    Skyclad
    Participant

    It implicitly assumes that women will be better at making games for women than men will be. Is this a reasonable assumption? Is this as sexist assumption? What are the consequences?[/quote:fba31169c8]
    From the evidence, I think it is a reasonable assumption. It is also a sexist assumption.

    If we can preferentially hire a female candidate (designer, artist, whatever) to work on a game whose target audience is mainly female, can we then therefore preferentially hire a male candidate (designer, artist, whatever) to work on a game whose target audience is mainly male?[/quote:fba31169c8]
    Presuming that there is an identifiable difference between the skillset a male and female candidate brings to the workplace, I think it would seem reasonable. There are jobs where gender doesnt make a difference at all. Equivalently I’d rather not see Sean Connery as leading lady in the next film I watch (though I’m sure he would act the part well…).

    [/stir]

    Dave

  • #33513

    omen
    Participant

    I was writting my response which was getting quiet long and had to do some work and I lost it…I’ll write it again later…

  • #33516

    aphra
    Keymaster

    I don’t think hiring more women will necessarily lead to more female gamers if nothing else changes

    And I don’t think women know how to make games for girls any better than men do..Read what Brenda Laurel wrote about her time at Purple Moon

    This should be a diversity discussion, not a gender one.

    But I do think many girls are just as competive as men so that is not a starting point in the debate. Now there may be issues around public and private enjoyment of competition – that seemed to come up in some of my interviews – rather than competition per se.

    Aphra.

  • #33535

    omen
    Participant

    Okay, just gonna make it short and to the point today.

    There are several factors that an employer will look at them hiring someone. Skills and experience are the obvious ones. Then there is the interviewer’s impression of the candidate and how they will fit in to the existing team. If you’re working on a team comprised entirely of men, the chances are its going to be easier for another man to fit into the team dynamic easier, while there may be issues for the female employee…maybe there is a lot of male conversation that my not be suitable in female company or other similar things. I think a woman trying to get a job in a company, especially a company that doesn’t already employ any other women, would need to tick a few extra boxes to meet the grade.

    Please note that this is not a personal opinion of female employees, but rather a personal opinion of how things probably work in a lot of companies and I have no evidence to back this up.

    On the other points, I’d have to agree with Aphra. Woman working in the industry isn’t going to suddenly making everything better for girls playing games, but I do think that we do need more women in the industry to question things that guys don’t and push boundaries where men wouldn’t dare or wouldn’t think of.

  • #33538

    feral
    Participant

    If you’re working on a team comprised entirely of men, the chances are its going to be easier for another man to fit into the team dynamic easier, while there may be issues for the female employee… [/quote:a361facdea]
    I know the above wasn’t your personal opinion, but I think it’s worth saying I think a lot of people, and employers, would disagree – they would think the team dynamic could only improve with diversity.

    1. I think she would be called for the interview, but she’d be less likely to get the job. [/quote:a361facdea]
    In a nutshell, the reason you think this is because you think there’s a lot of sexist discrimination out there?

    but I do think that we do need more women in the industry to question things that guys don’t and push boundaries where men wouldn’t dare or wouldn’t think of.[/quote:a361facdea]

    Why should we believe women will question things that guys won’t, or push boundaries where men wouldn’t? Is this a sexist belief? Should people hire preferentially based on it, or would that be wrong?

    Do we believe a more diverse group of people will create more diverse games?
    Or is this merely a sexist/racist/whatever opinion against those that currently create the games?

  • #33539

    peter_b
    Participant

    ah dave k.. way to start a debate… :P

  • #33541

    Skyclad
    Participant

    Can’t talk now, busy trying to figure out which side is underrepresented for my next post :)

  • #33542

    omen
    Participant

    I didn’t say sexual discrimation…and no thats not what I meant
    *sigh*
    I knew it would come out wrong :(

    Why should we believe women will question things that guys won’t, or push boundaries where men wouldn’t? Is this a sexist belief? Should people hire preferentially based on it, or would that be wrong?[/quote:709e9751e3]
    Women are different from men, its scientific fact, thought processes are different…thats why.

    Do we believe a more diverse group of people will create more diverse games? Or is this merely a sexist/racist/whatever opinion against those that currently create the games?[/quote:709e9751e3]
    Why wouldn’t they…the more diverse the ideas the more scope for inventiveness. As for current games, don’t you think that ideas some to be converging a lot these days…

  • #33545

    feral
    Participant

    I think a woman trying to get a job in a company, especially a company that doesn’t already employ any other women, would need to tick a few extra boxes to meet the grade. [/quote:7a46b83053]

    I didn’t say sexual discrimation…and no thats not what I meant [/quote:7a46b83053]
    I thought that the fact a woman would need to ‘tick a few extra boxes’ would mean that it’s sexual discrimination,?

    If it didn’t come across right, could you explain again why they’d have a harder timer getting the job?

    Women are different from men, its scientific fact, thought processes are different…thats why.[/quote:7a46b83053]
    The two sexes are different, can’t argue with that. But when it comes to hiring, shouldn’t those general differences be ignored? For example, you wouldn’t think of preferentially hiring an engineer just because they were male, and males think differently, right?
    So, logically, surely, we wouldn’t say it’s ok to hire females preferentially because you are trying to make games for females and you feel you need to create a predominantly female studio?
    Or is there a difference in the two cases?
    Surely, even if your trying to make games for girls, you should still hire the best developer, rather than the best female developer?

    Why wouldn’t they…the more diverse the ideas the more scope for inventiveness. As for current games, don’t you think that ideas some to be converging a lot these days…[/quote:7a46b83053]

    More diverse the ideas, the more scope for inventiveness – agreed.
    Current games, ideas converging a lot – agreed.

    But my question, as to whether a more diverse group creates more diverse games, you answer with ‘why wouldn’t they’ – I was hoping for a little more detail?
    I guess there’s two questions – does a more diverse group actually create more diverse games (if so, why?) and is it ok or wrong to hire preferentially based on this belief?

    I knew it would come out wrong[/quote:7a46b83053]
    It’s an area where emotions (understandably) run high for people and it’s very easy to say the wrong thing in, so it’s very easy for things to not come out the way they were meant…

  • #33547

    Skyclad
    Participant

    But I do think many girls are just as competive as men so that is not a starting point in the debate.[/quote:dd961a5660]
    Not sure about this, I’ve always felt that men are more competitive than women (quite possibly at a genetic level), while women tend towards more constructive interactions. This link would seem to support this approach.

    Similar gender based differences are also mirrored and happily accepted in many other species similar to our own, in particular those that afford “alpha male” status to social groupings.

    If this is the case, then it would seem that the win/lose aspect of games is a critical part of the imbalance in game uptake?

    Dave

  • #33548

    Skyclad
    Participant

    Surely, even if your trying to make games for girls, you should still hire the best developer, rather than the best female developer? [/quote:ec66fb6f1f]
    OR, if you are developing a game for a target market, is it better to employ people who are part of that target market on the assumption that they will understand it better?

    Dave

  • #33550

    peter_b
    Participant

    Surely, even if your trying to make games for girls, you should still hire the best developer, rather than the best female developer? [/quote:2008f743fa]
    OR, if you are developing a game for a target market, is it better to employ people who are part of that target market on the assumption that they will understand it better?

    Dave[/quote:2008f743fa]

    Makes sense. We make driving games and nearly everyone here is a petrol head.. Most buying probably will be too. I.e. we’re making a game we’d like to play which we know others like us would too.

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