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July 18, 2005 at 9:17 am #4354
Right so I’m sure most of you have either played or own GTA: San Andreas already so I’m sure you’ve heard of this “Hot Coffee” mod that is causing so much controversy. The thing is, is this a mod? Or is it a feature in the source code that can be unlocked? Regardless, even Senator Clinton has jumped on the Rockstar bashing bandwagon…
Now theres a few things wrong with this..
A) IF it is a mod then does that mean that developers should be respsonsible for the mods created for their games?
“There is no doubting the fact that the widespread availability of sexually explicit and graphically violent video games makes the challenge of parenting much harder,” [/quote:b4d82e7d8d]
Absolute, unadulterated rubbish. Speaking from personal experience when I was younger I was never allowed to buy, rent or even play games deemed unsuitable for me in my house. If parents kept a watchful eye or even took an interest in what their kids are playing they’d be better off than complainig about a game not even designed for their children.
Unfortunately, the recent confusion only serves to suggest that games do not deserve the same treatment as other forms of creative expression.[/quote:b4d82e7d8d]
Exactly, what makes GTA: San Andreas or any other game with mature content any more dangerous in the home than say a violent film? Ratings are there for a reason, use them and quit your bitching to be honest…
July 18, 2005 at 9:24 am #23120
R* pocket another $50m in sales…
July 18, 2005 at 9:29 am #23121
Ah yes theres always the extra publicity that these media witch hunts garner …Rockstar probably don’t give a toss what this one is about! :lol:
July 18, 2005 at 9:58 am #23124
The scotsman reports that it could end up on GTA:SA being recalled, which could ruin Rockstar….
July 18, 2005 at 10:04 am #23125
Hrm, I don’t really see that happening although I’m sure it would be the first case of its kind. Its not exactly unusual for developers to include features and content in their source code that people can only get at with some tinkering.
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas is the latest incarnation of a game which lets players steal cars and shoot characters, including gang members and police. Some have questioned whether the game has inspired several violent attacks and murders in the US.[/quote:32d98cb487]
Yes as there were never an gang murders, police being shot and people stealing cars until Grand Theft Auto was released… :roll:
July 18, 2005 at 10:06 am #23126
in the US it has an m rating which is 17+ so its not a adult rating, thats were part of the problem is.
it seems that this “Hot Coffee” is a left over in the game and not unlockable, it had to be hacked to get it to work ( why do they do this? in shenmue 2 there was a whole town that was cut from the game but was still in the code that was hacked in the xbox version).
the problem is Rockstar has to tell ESRB of all the content of the game, which they have technincally not done… but its just leftover code, that was not indented to be used… should they be punished?
July 18, 2005 at 10:21 am #23132
Ah yes but their M rating on games is effectivly the same as an 18 cert here. If its not suitable for 17+ then who is it suitable for?
Yes, if thats the case then theres going to be a problem, what will could happen is that despite the fact that the game is rated M and the Hot Coffee code is perfectly suitable for that rating, it still wasnt declared to the ESRB and hence the game will have to be recalled anyway. A win for the ingnorant by a technicality…
July 18, 2005 at 10:48 am #23139
from the bbc
The mature or “M” rated PC version of San Andreas is only supposed to be bought by those aged 17 and over.
If the game were to be get the rarely awarded Adults-Only (AO) rating, sales of the game could plummet.[/quote:a27a834278]
so its seems that our “18” is between m and AO…. u have to remember that in most of the US 21 is the adult age not 18
July 18, 2005 at 10:50 am #23141
I may be wrong but I think there is a rating above the M classification and the criers want to have it reclassified to that.
July 18, 2005 at 11:02 am #23144
July 18, 2005 at 11:58 am #23152
Aye as dark just pointed out. The main problem is parents and retailers don’t enforce these ratings well enough. People still just think ah computer games are for kids, but more and more games are targeted specifically at an adult audience.
July 18, 2005 at 12:01 pm #23155
Yes the Americans seem to draw quite a distinction between AO and M in games and R and NC-17. Its similar to the difference between the old 15 and new 15PG certs in this country. The US rating system for games is abit ridiclous, 1 year isnt going to reduce any potential damage a game would do to a teenager…
Looking at the film industry over there however, directors are always scared witless of a NC-17 cert and regard it as “commerically devestating” and will often make significant cuts to their films to obtain an R rating…how strange. I assume its only the stigma attached to the NC-17 rating rather than alienating all those 17 year olds who want to see the movie. :D
July 18, 2005 at 12:52 pm #23162
Looking at the film industry over there however, directors are always scared witless of a NC-17 cert and regard it as “commerically devestating” and will often make significant cuts to their films to obtain an R rating…how strange. I assume its only the stigma attached to the NC-17 rating rather than alienating all those 17 year olds who want to see the movie. :D[/quote:6aa3589e57]it’s not…. Getting an NC-17 rating consigns your movie to commercial obscurity as the mutilples won’t carry it on VHS/DVD format and family-friendly cineplexes won’t carry it
Same with games… An ‘M’ rating guarantees the likes of Walmart and Toys R Us won’t carry it
July 18, 2005 at 12:55 pm #23163
it’s not…. Getting an NC-17 rating consigns your movie to commercial obscurity as the mutilples won’t carry it on VHS/DVD format and family-friendly cineplexes won’t carry it[/quote:50ff68b510]
THAT i didnt know…
Same with games… An ‘M’ rating guarantees the likes of Walmart and Toys R Us won’t carry it[/quote:50ff68b510]
But sure Half Life was M and I’d say most of the new big sellers such as HL2, Far Cry, Doom 3 and Splinter Cell are all the same, hrm… :?
July 18, 2005 at 3:51 pm #23187
But sure Half Life was M and I’d say most of the new big sellers such as HL2, Far Cry, Doom 3 and Splinter Cell are all the same, hrm… :?[/quote:0796cbff89]apologies, meant to say ‘AO’ and not ‘M’ for games
July 18, 2005 at 4:05 pm #23189
Ah…that makes more sense. I remember several stores refused to carry Kingpin a few years ago. Its pretty tame compared to some of the games out nowadays…
July 18, 2005 at 5:17 pm #23193
I suspect Rockstar are guilty of courting controversy to get some more sales (as they appeared to do with manhunt), and I can hardly blame them. There will always be knee-jerking idiots and opportunist fools prepared to climb on a wicker basket and rant about pornography, sodomites and video games they know nothing about to an audience that knows even less.
The whole thing in the US is fascinating, because on one hand there are anti-games ‘crusaders’ like Jack Thompson blaming games for everything from Columbine to Sodom and Gomorrah; while on the other side libertarian nutters are campaigning against legal enforcement of game ratings, claiming it’s overzealous government. Not to mention moralising owners of retail chains refusing to stock anything that doesn’t fit in with their corn flakes and enema view of life. I wonder what will happen as the games industry moves from traditional retail channels to online sales as Valve has done.
And on an aside… Has anyone got the knack of those missions? I always fail and get the “It’s a crime to fail to satisfy a woman” line. Is it just me?
July 21, 2005 at 8:27 am #23284
more info here:
Take 2 estimate this will cost $45m in lsot sales this quarter…
Retail Reaction Statement to Violent Video Game Recall
July 21, 2005 at 9:06 am #23289
Wonderful, knee jerk stupidity is all it is. Ironically enough the effect that this has will be different than what most people think
Though not a policy, IEMA members generally do not carry AO-rated games any differently than we do not carry X-rated videos or DVDs, thus it is likely that our members will be removing all copies of the current version and re-stocking with the updated version.”
We understand that several non-IEMA retail companies intend to continue selling the current version, so we would refer all media inquiries to those respective corporations.[/quote:0f2a7f2a23]
Something like this has never happened with a widly popular game and given the huge sales of the GTA series I don’t think many stores will stop carrying the game. While the large stores such as Walmart and Toys R’ Us may do so I don’t see it becoming the norm. In the face of this what are we left with?
A game that 17 year olds cant play but that 18 year olds can…THE HORROR!
July 21, 2005 at 5:42 pm #23318
IEMA members generally do not carry AO-rated games any differently than we do not carry X-rated videos or DVDs[/quote:0cb76cab69]What a joke. Have they seen what they’re rating as equivalent to hardcore porn?
So where to from here? I couldn’t see the hot coffee part of the game creating as much of a stir this side of the atlantic even if it had been included in the game from the start (perhaps the bbfc and the likes would have wanted it cut, but it’s not like there’s anything approaching full frontal so i’d consider it unlikely). Violence is far more likely to lend a game notoriety over here than sex is. I’ve read comments (I’d guess from americans) speculating that it was something put into the game by programmers for their own amusement and was accidentally or mischievously left in the final builds, but I’d bet it was chopped with orders from the US after they saw it. I don’t think we’re so weird about sex, but perhaps I’m wrong.
Or is this just a fault of the american rating system which deems it appropriate for 17 year olds to play gratuitously violent games?
Will we start seeing seperate versions of games on either side of the Atlantic? More salacious this side, bloodier the other? Clearly, sex sells – where it’s allowed to at any rate…
July 21, 2005 at 5:53 pm #23319
just got BBFC quotes from eurogamer
Indeed, just last week the BBFC said that while it didn’t know about Hot Coffee at the time of rating the game, it wasn’t going to update it. “Even if we had been aware of it, we would not have had a problem,” a spokesperson told this website. “From our point of view the hidden material does not contravene the 18 rating and so the rating stands.”[/quote:0d13082b6e]
July 22, 2005 at 8:50 am #23326
July 26, 2005 at 10:19 am #23406
it gets worse
US politicians have stepped into the storm over secret sex scenes in the best-selling Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas game.
The House of Representatives has overwhelmingly called for investigation into the companies behind the game……..
“The release of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas was widely anticipated, but an adults-only rating would have severely limited its sales in retail outlets,” said Congressman Fred Upton of Michigan.
“It appears that the publisher has blatantly circumvented the rules in order to peddle sexually explicit material to our youth, and they should be held accountable. A company cannot be allowed to profit from deceit.” [/quote:8640f1f87a]
July 26, 2005 at 10:33 am #23408
Rockstar Games has stopped producing the current version of the game and is working on a version that will qualify for the M rating.[/quote:11882f4a0a]
Get rid of Hot Coffee code…problem solved…
The uproar is over explicit sexual scenes in the game that can be unlocked with software created by a fan.[/quote:11882f4a0a]
Note the use of fan and not developer. Also notice the lack of any information regarding the code released by the developer..
“It appears that the publisher has blatantly circumvented the rules in order to peddle sexually explicit material to our youth, and they should be held accountable. A company cannot be allowed to profit from deceit.”[/quote:11882f4a0a]
I wonder did he need surgery in order to excrete orally, or does it come naturally?
I wonder if they examined the sales of GTA: SA since the story broke would they find an increase in sales? I can nearly guarentee not, reasons? Well nearly everyone who is going to buy the game will have done so already. Also the fact that the game is now gone from the shelves of many of the major retailers in the US will only hurt any possible sales further. This issue has not benefited Rockstar in anyway really. Fair enough they say any publicity is good publicity but when said publicity leads to a product recall and limiting of sales then well wheres the benefit in that? Also they did not “circumvent” anything, the code was there but not accessible unless someone with proper knowledge was able to access it, I still havnt seen or heard any of my friends using the mod yet.
Oh and he said it himself, “peddle sexually explicit material to our youth” excuse me but wasnt the old rating Mature? 17+? Fair enough one may be regarded as being in ones youth back then but to make the assumption that it instantly becomes acceptable once one gets to 18 is just plain naive.
I refer back to my previous comment about parents doing their jobs and keeping the game out of their homes when their kids are underage….
July 26, 2005 at 11:12 am #23410
So they’re doing a cut version now aren’t they?
GTA SA: De-Caffinated
July 26, 2005 at 2:41 pm #23420
And so ignorance prevails again…
As Anand mentioned..
It’s interesting though that sex provokes such a response from politicians, but drive-bys, cop killing, and drug dealing don’t really phase them.[/quote:4a74f71b28]
Sounds like South Park to be honest… :D
July 26, 2005 at 11:51 pm #23428
ppl are far too high strung about these things, ratings never stopped me from buying games when i was younger, stores sell games to whoever has money in my experience.
July 27, 2005 at 7:24 am #23429
i think they actually did a study on that recently, no matter what the ESRB do and even when the rules are enforced all most kids do is get their parents to buy the game for them.
Did you see that there is now a shot being taken at Sims 2 over the pixels and whats behind them. The worst thing in the world is when someone knows a little bit about something and decides to tell it as gospel to people who know nothing
July 27, 2005 at 7:36 am #23431
I am actually presenting a paper on GTA as contested cultural product here in Taiwan..part of it looks at Take 2’s business strategy with GTA games and its development since GTA: III and part of it looks at the variations between rating systems and reactions to the different games in the US, Europe and Australia. There are significant diffs between the systems and it looks, so far, like PEGI won’t change their classification of GTA:SA. I am interested in the debate over how ‘realistic’ these scenes are, the implication that they have serious ‘effects’ on children and the debate over authorship/the source of the ‘scenes’.
It is only a first draft and I decided to write it last Christmas after Prime Time did their piece on GTA: SA, how topical can a paper get.. – anyway, if people are interested I can send them a copy when I get back next week..
July 27, 2005 at 8:25 am #23434
Congressman Fred Upton (R-MI) “I look forward to the FTC getting to the bottom of this matter. It is despicable that a company would go to such lengths to deliver smut to our kids. As a parent of two teenagers, I am particularly outraged… Should the FTC determine that Rockstar Games deliberately misled the ratings board and consumers nationwide, they will pay the price.”[/quote:7b56535915]
This is sooo ridiculous I am not even going to get bothered about it.
Rockstar are in the clear, this was never meant to be discovered. It cannot even be accessed by cheats you need to use hacks to get it to work.
July 27, 2005 at 9:43 am #23438
Add me to that list Aphra if you wouldn’t mind, I’d love to give it a read…
Indeed, I’d love to know what age Senator Uptons kids are, if he is so outraged then they must own the game…I wonder are they over 17?
He clearly doesnt know whats going on with respect to the hack, hes just jumping on another bandwagon in order to get his name in the press.
July 27, 2005 at 11:07 am #23440
Rockstar are in the clear, this was never meant to be discovered. It cannot even be accessed by cheats you need to use hacks to get it to work.[/quote:e1bfe38beb]
I thought it said somewhere that you can unlock it on the ps2 using some cheat from ActionReplay or somewhere. in that case its probably a test aid to unlock all mini-games that wasn’t removed.
July 27, 2005 at 11:43 am #23441
Rockstar are in the clear, this was never meant to be discovered. It cannot even be accessed by cheats you need to use hacks to get it to work.[/quote:2446d4ec6f]
I thought it said somewhere that you can unlock it on the ps2 using some cheat from ActionReplay or somewhere. in that case its probably a test aid to unlock all mini-games that wasn’t removed.[/quote:2446d4ec6f]
yes you can unlock it with ar2 or if you have naplink or a similar device which hooks to the ps2 usb or network connector (if you have net adapter, not really wide spread this side of the water).
you can dump the contents of your memory card to the pc, patch the save game, redump to your memory card and its unlocked.
Hot Coffee (After Successful Date)
WARNING: Uncensored Hot Coffee CODE UNLOCKS ADULT CONTENT HIDDEN BY ROCKSTAR GAMES
Censored Hot Coffee
Note: Use this code if you wish to save game with Uncensored Hot Coffee disabled
Uncensored Hot Coffee
Note: DO NOT SAVE WITH THIS CODE ACTIVE This cheat will save and MAY corrupt your save USE AT YOUR OWN RISK
You will be stuck in an invisible box after adult scene Press R1 R2 L1 L2 buttons at the same time to escape
July 27, 2005 at 11:54 am #23442
I think its really stupid the fact that this is getting so much attention when they have so much other stuff.
But at the end of the day, Rockstar knew it was there and denied it, thats going to hurt them.
July 28, 2005 at 8:58 am #23466
I bloody well knew this would happen and it only reinforces my argument…
I mean are people so *cough* bloody *cough* stupid that they think buying a Mature rated game for their under-17 year old child is ok? And why is extreme violence alright but sexual content not? Why aren’t they treated the same in the media over there?
The grandmother was angered when she found out that San Andreas contained hidden sex scenes and she believes that Rockstar is guilty of “false advertising, consumer deception and unfair business practices.[/quote:44a96853cc]
The game is rated MATURE for a reason lady, look at the bloody box next time, its not like its hidden or anything…Click. Theres no false advertising, deception or *laughs* unfair business practices…
Needless to say, there is a huge problem with this lawsuit. Did the grandmother think it was okay to purchase a Mature video game filled to the brim with guns and violence for a 14-year-old? Now that she discovered there’s some hidden sex scene in the game, she suddenly doesn’t want her grandson to be exposed to that, but extreme violence is acceptable? It simply doesn’t make sense. If she had taken just a moment to look at the rating and content descriptors, one of which is “strong sexual content,” perhaps she would have never purchased the game in the first place. The game’s title is even named after a felony; that alone should have been a red flag to her.
The fact is that Florence Cohen, unfortunately like many parents and grandparents, ignored the ESRB’s ratings system completely. Rockstar Games and Take-Two are certainly not to blame for that.
Perhaps the one positive that may result from all this controversy is an increased awareness of the ESRB ratings and what they stand for.[/quote:44a96853cc]
Sums it up for me so I don’t have to get any more frustrated…
Basically she should be sued for negligence or providing unsuitable content to a minor or whatever the charge is called….see if that softens here bloody cough…
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