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This topic contains 47 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  monument 12 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #4479

    gizmo
    Participant

    For those who havnt already seen it, as reported on GamesIndustry.biz

    The Xbox 360 is set to be priced at 399.99 Euro (GBP 279.99) for the full system when it launches in Europe later this year, with the “Core System” pack – which doesn’t have a hard drive – selling for 299.99 Euro (GBP 209.99).[/quote:5b8265b1fc]
    Now is it just me or does that seem quite reasonable for a new console. The “Core” starter pack seems just fine for the average user. My only complaint is the HDD that comes with the premium pack, 20GB seems abit on the small side to be honest, although I have no idea how big the Xbox games are…

  • #23950

    lk_
    Participant

    The xbox 360 games cant require the use of the hard drive…or at least thats what I read in a press release a few weeks back…. All games have to work without….

  • #23954

    omen
    Participant

    Now is it just me or does that seem quite reasonable for a new console. [/quote:cbc2d7d000]
    Not a chance in hell I’ll be paying that much for a console! Wait a while and see the price cuts, just like every other console release.

  • #23955

    lk_
    Participant

    Yes but thats unlikely to happen at least until the PS3 arrives, even then I’d say it’ll depend on Sony’s pricing.

  • #23957

    omen
    Participant

    I’d still refuse to pay that much when you consider the price of the games. Chances are they could go up, definitelly won’t go down…

  • #23960

    Steph
    Participant

    You can come play with mine, then, Omen :lol:

    I’ve decided a while back to boycott Sony ad vitam eternam so that’s PSP/PS3 out, and Ninty’s Revolution is still pretty much vaporware – and I was quite happy/satisfied with my XBOX, so I’m thinking that, yeah… I’ve only got a few months left to invest in a 1080i-compatible FSTV :wink:

  • #23965

    lk_
    Participant

    I doubt I’ll go xbox, hell I’ll probably not bother with any of the next gen consoles, am quite happy to bang away on my PC. At least I can mod the games and see how they tick….

  • #23979

    eighthnemesis
    Participant

    ah but you cant just fall on a couch turn it on and have it working in a matter of seconds. so good for when you are feeling particularly lazy

  • #23981

    lk_
    Participant

    ah but I can start my computer boil the kettle, start the game and just when I sit down with my coffee its ready

  • #23982

    kyotokid
    Keymaster
  • #23983

    gizmo
    Participant

    Well the core pack is the same price as the PS2 at launch and we all remember the buying frenzy that took place when that was released. For such a superior piece of kit I suppose I just guessed it’d be abit higher.
    Oh and when I thought the 20GB HDD was small I meant for em…”other” uses, rather than than for use with games…:D

    As for a price drop, well I’d say we’ll see one a week or two before the PS3 comes out just to try and persuade the last few people to buy one.

    Honestly I don’t see myself buying either console, hell theres games on the XBox and PS2 (and even Dreamcast) that I havnt gotten around to playing so I won’t be giving the next gen machines much attention till I’ve caught up! :D

  • #23985

    omen
    Participant

    Bah, you’ll get caught up in the flow and buy one just like everyone else. I’m holding out for a big price drop though….

  • #23986

    gizmo
    Participant

    I havnt bought a console since the SNES… :lol:

  • #23990

    anthony
    Participant

    Apparently, if you don’t but the 20gb HDD for the 360 you can’t play original xbox games – which is really taking the p!ss out of people imho – it’s basically saying “we took your money the first time and fully intend to try to get more out of you by not thinking of our existing customers”, fair enough the xbox was released without the intention of MS posting predictable profits because they wanted to break into the games market but a bit of decency like!

    I also read a comment the Head of Microsoft’s Home and Entertainment division said that nobody has offered the level of choice (the core system or the full xbox 360 package) for consoles before and that it was “ground breaking” because before you had to buy a console regardless of what features came with it – i think that’s rubbish and is just a money spinner, even having to buy a DVD remote for the Xbox was ridiculous.

    its not like you buy a console that includes a walnut finish but really you wanted maple, but have to settle for it – you don’t even get what you want with a console when you buy it – 2 controllers.

    sorry, i got a bit carried away there :lol:

  • #23992

    eighthnemesis
    Participant

    it does seem like they are trying to introduce upgradability to an area that is based on everything being standardised

  • #24034

    jediboy
    Participant

    Maybe its just me, but when I hear games consoles for sale, I always think 150 Euro (Max).

    I’d apply the same “stigma” (maybe ‘preconception’ would be a better word) to handhelds, which have [to me at least] a perceived value of about 99 Euro.

    Now I know the big bad bosses of the games industry have been piping on about having 1.2 million developers working on a single title, and therefore increased cost to develop, leads to increase cost of final product, but I’m smelling BLUFF, SMOKE & MIRRORS, and downright MIS-INFORMATION. Just look at what the guys at http://www.ProjectOffset.com have achieved with three people!

    So EA, if your reading this, ya can stick your price increase up your compiler! try to rip off your target market, and they’ll just end up buying chipped/modded boxes from the web.

    The Greed Will Consume All…

  • #24049

    goldeneyes
    Participant

    it does seem like they are trying to introduce upgradability to an area that is based on everything being standardised[/quote:ea8d733a40]

    … and thats why i’ll never buy one. Im not gonna get started on Microsoft and their love for charging people for upgrades on things that are apparently perfect when they’re first released, but im sticking with sony the whole way.

    I wont be buying the PS3 until the price war starts. Should be around xmas or in the january sales i suppose. What are the release dates for the consoles by the way?

  • #24050

    Greenbean
    Participant

    “Apparently, if you don’t but the 20gb HDD for the 360 you can’t play original xbox games – which is really taking the p!ss out of people imho – it’s basically saying “we took your money the first time and fully intend to try to get more out of you by not thinking of our existing customers”, fair enough the xbox was released without the intention of MS posting predictable profits because they wanted to break into the games market but a bit of decency like!”

    I don’t understand? You can still play xbox games on your xbox surely? Backwards compatibility is more a feature than a customer right.

    I do understand the anger though. Do we really need a new wave of technology? There’s a theory that the only people who ever gain by refreshing the hardware every 7/8 years are the hardware manufacturers. It’s not good for development (which can’t stabilise and cut costs), it’s not good for publishers (who must play ball with the gatekeepers to the technology). And while it may seem great as a hardcore gamer to see all this innovation in hardware, ultimately we are suffering because innovation anywhere else is a risk.

    I look forward to the day when console fanboi’s are an amusing aspect of the past and instead we have developer groupies. Yeah, that’s right, groupies. hmmmmmmm…. groupies.

  • #24051

    kyotokid
    Keymaster
  • #24052

    eighthnemesis
    Participant

    you get a wireless controller too from what i know

  • #24053

    gizmo
    Participant

    As the article stages…you get the hard drive, headset (which seems very good quality but or course better can always be had), Wi-Fi adapter, Ethernet cable, the remote for the DVD functions, a wireless controller and the Silver subscription to XBox LIVE…something you DONT get with the basic version.

    As far as I can see the HDD and LIVE/Headset bundle are going to be the major selling points for this console. As I mentioned to one of my mates the other night, its a case of an online package or offline with respect to the two bundles on offer…

  • #24054

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    In the other version you get a normal controller instead of a wireless one. Neglible cost difference for MS.

    The remote control is a very limited one as far as I am aware.

  • #24057

    eighthnemesis
    Participant

    ah but you probably cant watch dvds without it, again

  • #24062

    gizmo
    Participant

    I hope thats not the case. That was my only real main gripe with the XBox, it annoyed me and I didn’t even own the console! :D

  • #24063

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    Is backwards compatibility that much of a big deal to most people, be they hardcore or normal consumer?

    I know there was a large number of people who bought budget PS1 games but I imagine that was to play them on their PS1 or PSone’s not their PS2’s.

  • #24079

    gizmo
    Participant

    Well it means you can sell your XBox to offset some of the cost of the XBox 360, same with Sonys machine. But the draw of budget games is also there. IF i was to get an XBox 360 I can guarentee you that some of the first games I’d buy are regular XBox games that I havnt played yet…

  • #24080

    lk_
    Participant

    I think I made use of backward compatibility once and that was only to take a quick trip down memory lane and play FF7 again… it wouldnt be a breaking point for me

  • #24096

    stevec_havok
    Participant

    Apparently, if you don’t but the 20gb HDD for the 360 you can’t play original xbox games – which is really taking the p!ss out of people imho – it’s basically saying “we took your money the first time and fully intend to try to get more out of you by not thinking of our existing customers”[/quote:6b40dabd33]

    Not wanting to take any sides here but just consider the tech issues. The majority of Xbox games presume the existence of a hard drive. For Xbox360 tobe backwards compatible, there absolutely has to be either a Hard Drive or a piece of hardware that has similar storage andcan approximate the performance and behavior of a hard drive.

    Now they have a choice of forcing all customers of 360 to buy a hard drive (i.e. include it by default) or make backwards compatibilty one of those extra sauce features you get for buying the drive. Some folks will choose not to,other folks might have a back catalogue and not interested in having 2 consoles cluttering up the front room or whatever.

    In my books I buy the MS argument – keep costs low as possible but offer the choice. Given their tech options I can’t see that they could have resolved this in any other way…

  • #24100

    omen
    Participant
  • #24136

    gizmo
    Participant

    While theres an XBox 360 thread still active…

    Seems the console made an appearance at the IDF, Intels own convention, which was rather surprising since theres no explicit Intel technology inside the Xbox 360.

    Some nice pics however, including one of the remote which looks pretty nice…

    Link

  • #24181

    Squash-n-Stretch
    Participant

    Hmm…300 euro for the core isn’t bad at all; you’re right!

  • #24183

    gizmo
    Participant

    That was said with FAR too much surprise! :D

  • #24188

    Squash-n-Stretch
    Participant

    lol. I’m just thinking in a relation of the PSP launching for 50 euro less, but the X-Box 2 being potentially so much better :D *dreams of Halo 3*

  • #24189

    lk_
    Participant

    I thought they were going to redo Halo 2 first….didnt I read that from somewhere or am I going mad

  • #24196

    gizmo
    Participant

    Hrm, I was so annoyed when Halo 2 finished so abruptly so I’m definitly looking forward to Halo 3, hence I hope they don’t make Bungie waste their time by re-doing Halo2…

  • #24292

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    What you think about this argument…

    “Xbox 360 with no HD-DVD = mistake”

    Let’s take the transition from PS1 to PS2. PS1 characters were generally 200 to 1500 polygons max. PS2 characters are generally 1500 to 15000 polygons. That 7 to ten times the polygons. A PS1 only had 3.5 meg of ram. A PS2 has 40meg of ram. That’s nearly 10 times the ram. These types of facts generally translate into 10 times the data on the DVD.

    So now, with the next gen coming up the new systems both appear to have 512meg of ram. That’s 8 times more than Xbox and 12 times more than PS2. So, if we calculate it out, if the data being used is going to go up by 8 to 12 times then if the average game uses a one gig of data that becomes 8 to 12 gigs needed on the DVD. DVDs only store 4.7 gigs of data…..Put those games on the next gen and with all the fancy textures, normal maps, gloss maps, HDR environment maps, and high res polygon models they will not fit on a DVD and we haven’t even considered adding HD video which Mr. Allard emphasised so much in past 360 presentations. [/quote:e9d0582fb4]

    http://www.greggman.com/edit/editheadlines/2005-08-17.htm

  • #24298

    gizmo
    Participant

    Dual Layer DVDs have 8.4GB of storage first of all so thats one thing that needs to be taken into consideration.

    As for the article, well thats a very simplistic look at it. Put it this way, MS are NOT going to release a console that developers can’t make the very best games for. Its the same thing I said in the leadup to the unveiling of the next gen consoles ages ago. My Sony fan boy friends were screaming at me that “the PS3 is going to be x times more powerful than the Xbox 2, just look at the Cell compared to what MS has” my reply was always simple – MS would NEVER release a console that was so completely inferior to its competitors in such a competitive market…

  • #24303

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    Check out his comments….

    “DVD-9 (Dual layer) Doesn’t solve the problem. Only 2 of the 5 examples above would fit on a DVD-9 and that still doesn’t count on using HD video. Add HD and none of them will fit.”

    I think he is a programmer at Naughty Dog.

  • #24305

    Skyclad
    Participant

    They could always ask Sony if they could borrow their blu-ray tech :)

    One presumes that if M$ thought there would be an issue with disk size that they would do something about it. Games for pcs regularly come on 2,3,4 or more cds (and some console games have done in the past too I’m sure), so there should be no major issue there.

    Dave

  • #24306

    gizmo
    Participant

    Hrm, that same comment also rules out my “it’ll probably revert to multi-disc games” argument.

    Meh, I hate talking about this kind of stuff without the consoles “in my hands” so to speak, so I can make more informed statements about them.

  • #24307

    Skyclad
    Participant

    Hrm, that same comment also rules out my “it’ll probably revert to multi-disc games” argument.[/quote:d9aff45d8e]
    It does???

    And off topic…
    From a player perspective, I think the idea of having 3 disks, each managing 1/3 of the game is a fantastic idea. I know a lot of people who used to talk about what disk they were on in Final Fantasy, almost with pride relating to their progress. It’s a very subtle metric of progress within a game for a player, who also gets a sense of achievement when he(/she) “finishes a disk”

    Dave

  • #24308

    gizmo
    Participant

    As for the example of using more than 1 DVD, that only works for games that don’t need to access all the content regularly (which I already pointed out). A linear game like Resident Evil 4 works using more than 1 DVD because once you make it to DVD#2 you never have to put DVD#1 back in. A game like Jak & Daxter or GTA would suck ass if it took more than one DVD because you’d end up having to pause the game every 3 to 6 minutes to swap DVDs since those games access all their data more randomly.[/quote:c22fa3d499]
    Indeedy, the quote he made on his site. He has a point though, it would only work on a few particular genres of games and to be honest I think we’ve been trying to get away from linearity in games for awhile now…

    As for PC Games coming on multiple discs, well remember that most of that content is copied onto the PCs Hard Drive, something that not all XBox 360 users will have, and thats where its accessed from

  • #24309

    Skyclad
    Participant

    Indeedy, the quote he made on his site. He has a point though, it would only work on a few particular genres of games and to be honest I think we’ve been trying to get away from linearity in games for awhile now…
    [/quote:558aaaba1d]

    I’m not disagreeing that there are some limitations with the size of the disk, I’m just saying that it is also far from a major design constraint. For the linear genre of game, as has been mentioned, multiple disks, where necessary, are fine. For more open games such as GTA, the texture definition in those games has always been far lower.

    He also makes out that every model is going to be textured to the max, which is never going to be the case. Sure, a player avatar is going to have specular, bump and every other mapping under the sun, but distant and other less significant textures are going to be the exact same as they have been in the past (maybe upping the resulution by a power for posterity’s sake). In addition, increasing the geometry space for certain objects wont result in any noticable improvement – a crate will still look like a crate at 10 polygons or 10000.

    As for PC Games coming on multiple discs, well remember that most of that content is copied onto the PCs Hard Drive, something that not all XBox 360 users will have, and thats where its accessed from[/quote:558aaaba1d]
    …which is why i specifically noted that there have been games in the past that have come on multiple disks for systems that have not had access to hard drives. Also as mentioned, I believe that games for consoles can use the multiple disks as a *feature* of the game, very much in contradiction with the premise of copying things to the HD, as this removes the need to progress through disks.

    There are definately limitations in 4.7gb, but seriously, if we cant come up with ways of making decent games with this kind of memory, maybe its worth asking a few of those folks who managed to fit all the old commodore games in 64k of memory, or god forbid teh old atari (4k? I think?) how they managed back in the day.

    Dave

  • #24363

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    From Software producer Masanori Takeuchi, who’s been working on Enchant Arm, a role-playing game slated to be an Xbox 360 launch title, said developers will also be running into issues of storage space in the next generation. While the Xbox 360 is a next-generation console, Microsoft decided to equip it with a normal DVD reader rather than give it HD-DVD or Blu-ray reading capabilities.

    “The volume of data in Enchant Arms won’t fit into a single DVD. It’s an RPG, so we’re thinking it would be inevitable that we release it on two discs,” says Takeuchi. “But to be honest, that’s even looking grim.” [/quote:1285e8e5b0]

    Takeuchi wishes theat the Xbox 360 had higher storage discs….

  • #24459

    gizmo
    Participant
  • #24460

    Steph
    Participant

    Someone rings Ernie Hobbs right-this-minute-now :lol:

  • #24462

    You There
    Participant
  • #25046

    monument
    Participant

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