- This topic has 33 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 5 months ago by Anonymous.
June 25, 2004 at 7:45 am #3280AnonymousInactive
These days I seem to be ever bored with the games I buy, I’m having an awfully though time settling down with a good game, or any game for that matter. I recently bought Metal Gear again on the Cube, I played it a few years back on the PS and now all I see is an interactive movie with little or no gameplay.
I dunno, i just seem incapable of enjoying a game these days. Don’t know what it is?. The Last game I played and played and am still playing is Soul Calibur and I got that on release. Before that it was Halo, and I am still playing that too!, but today see’s me buying games only too leave them after a couple of play’s. Unless I force myself to finish it, like Prince of Persia. Does anyone else experience these spells of lack of interest?, i know it’s not the fact that i’m growing out of games because I’m looking forward to Halo 2 HL2 and Doom 3 like something savage.:o
June 25, 2004 at 11:25 am #12956AnonymousInactive
Omega, your post just summed up exactly how I’ve been feeling lately. I never noticed during the last term in college because I never got a chance to play games as I was snowed under with coursework but now I’m seeing the reality. For the most part I enjoy gaming experiences such as MGS2 and other games that are ever increasingly becoming classed as ‘interactive movies’.
However, from time to time I just want to sit down and play a fun game with pure 100% gameplay. The only three games I’ve played for more than five minutes in the past few weeks are Tekken Tag Tournament, Virtua Tennis and Commandos 2! I just don’t want to be sit there bored as I watch Emma die for the 1001th time. I want to go out and snap some necks, traditional Metal Gear style.
A lot more I could say on this but I have a bug which I thought was getting better but is actually getting worse so I won’t bother trying to explain my frustration. Though sometimes, such as now, I really want to just fall back in time and play Mega Bomberman all day long. In fact I have my Mega Drive in the attic so…
June 25, 2004 at 12:54 pm #12960AnonymousInactive
Yeah Ronny man, the good old days eh, I’d love a game of Killer Instinct on me snes now, those were the days alright.Pure fun.Pure Gameplay.
Ronny you mention you enjoy such games as Metal Gear and the like because of their resemblence to movies, while this is good for you, I sometimes find myself itching to press the start button and skip entire cut scenes so that i can get back to playing with snake(no smart remarks please), because it is as you said classic Metal Gear snapping necks and all….hmmm, I think Kojima-san is a little to obsessed with the intergration of movie like substance into games.
here’s a thought, keep the great scripts and voice acting, musical score ect… but either shorten the Cut-scenes or lenghten the gameplay sections. seriously there’s a Boss fight or cut-scene every 5 mins in Metal Gear on the Cube, its irratating just when your getting into the game along comes another bloody interville…food for thought though
June 25, 2004 at 1:15 pm #12964AnonymousInactive
June 25, 2004 at 2:20 pm #12967AnonymousInactive
When telling a story becomes more important in a game than the actual gameplay [/quote:62562b5bed]
Yes, exactly….then it no longer is a game, now is it?
June 26, 2004 at 12:15 pm #12972AnonymousInactive
Hmm, I don’t think it’s necessarily game vs. story scenario here. I think, with a bit of imagination, there are many ways story and game can be integrated without the old game-cutscene-game-cutscene format. Take Half Life for example, they presented all the story elements while you were still in control of freedman and most of the major story events were things you couldn’t help but witness as you played through the game.
Then you can take old point and click games where conversation was an integral part of the gameplay, hence the story was a natural product of it.
If you have to use cutscenes, I personally found Blue Stinger a great example on how to use it, they kept their cutscenes brief, to the point yet still sorta fun. They presented them in the right way too. If you completed a short section, you got a short cutscene. If you compleated a large section of the game, you got a large cutscene that would advance the plot and set you up for the next section of the game. It all just seemed to work pretty well and while they still came frequent enough to remind you what was going on, they were never long or pointless enough to fustrate you or break the flow of the gameplay.
June 26, 2004 at 2:43 pm #12974AnonymousInactive
Yes Sofox, thats how I want to see story telling intergrated into games, Half Life style.
But what I was saying is that some games “method” of intergrating the story into the game can have dire consequences, ie: Metal Gear in my opinion.
But your dead right, Half Life’s method was top class, not only were you still in control but the cut scenes actually had something to do with the story, which seems to not be the case with Metal Gear.
or is it me, maybe Kojima-san is too smart for me and I can’t decipher his story telling shinannagans.
June 26, 2004 at 4:08 pm #12975AnonymousInactive
Sorry, just had to post it.
I find that Gabe’s comment about it also works for Matrix Revolutions.
June 27, 2004 at 9:17 am #12979AnonymousInactive
Max Payne I and II….they were pretty much interactive movies but had the blend of game and cut scenes spot-on.
June 28, 2004 at 10:29 am #12987AnonymousInactive
“These days I seem to be ever bored with the games I buy”[/quote:1de49ee05e]
i know that feeling.
sounds like the summer time blues!
where the total lack of interesting releases causes you to become bored with games and slightly disillusioned. so you start playing old games, which you remember enjoying – but that could just be nostalgia.
i’m convinced that theres also a subconcious guilt factor, still residing from youth, where mothers used to kick you out of the house to go play, cause it was too nice a day to be wasted indoors.
i think the only solution is to go outside and play something that doesn’t involve a gamepad!
(blasphemer! did you hear what he said? no gamepad? kill the heathen!)
June 28, 2004 at 11:14 am #12992AnonymousInactive
Craig, I think you gave the best possible explanation to the problem at hand: It’s sunny outside, and I’m bored getting this guy to run trough the forest for the nth time to get a new heal potion in the camp shop…
We should make summer games perhaps?
On the other one, the story problem, I think, we’re only now being able to experiment with story based content in games. And so far most people think of a story, and try fit a game around it. Top-down approach: Decide a goal, and make the system so that it can achieve it.
As humans we now know classical story and narration styles from all over the world, and from all times, plus some of us have a few years of gaming on our fully grown-up shoulders.
The beginning-middle-peak-end way of story-telling is not engaging, nor entertaining any longer, not often anyway.
A solution? (the cinema heads do it already, since Pulp Fiction at least), is to find a way of making up the premises for the story, a Setting? And have the content evolve (pardon the buzzword) in an emergent fashion: simple interactions of rules “make” the story. Any one seen Spirited Away? Everithing fits without needing to be detailed extensively, If only game worlds of that scope could be created, and made playeable without a director deciding the plot…
Black and White: Good and Evil hand is a start, as was the very well done audio in HL2, letting you hear the marines were coming to get you…
It will take more work on “game world” design approach, and the AI will need to be a bit more than smoke and mirrors, but that’s what we want, no?:confused:
June 28, 2004 at 1:02 pm #12994AnonymousInactive
Firstly craig, i’m not one of these “stay inside all day every day to play games” kind of person, I work alot, and drink myself stupid at the weekends so the only real time i get to play games is in the evening after corrie(ahem).
ManE, your theory is abstract to say the least, or rather semi contradictory, you say that most games lay down the plot and build the game world around it, true. But the problem is not the narrative or its relation to the story it’s the way in which its implimintation is executed, If you have a great story, something along the lines of the Metal gear theory’s, you should as a game designer look at the possibilities of reducing the amount of linear interaction between the player and the plot.
For eg:(although this type of game design is maybe a generation or two off), the plot in most games is directly controlled by the games designers and producers, this is not nessicarily correct design. Think Metal Gear again, you have the conspiracy theory and you have its cast, snake ect. To remove the interactive boundries between the player and the plot via real time interaction with the narrative would be alot more entertaining than plodding along lead by dribbles of info which you later understand was misinformed(cliche).
What designers need to do is to come up with away of removing the “static” from the cut scenes, if not remove them altoghter.
Away to make the player completly free to walk away from their obligations or to surcume to their morale thoughts. To be set in a world where you create the problem to fix… where their isn’t always a nessicary evil or corrupt political domination, a world.
but as I said this is probably a generation or two off. indeed
June 28, 2004 at 1:30 pm #12997AnonymousInactive
i’m not one of these “stay inside all day every day to play games”[/quote:7efdd5d616]
i wasn’t saying you were.
i was saying i am. :D
at least when i’m not working.
June 28, 2004 at 1:35 pm #12998AnonymousInactive
And I wasn’t saying you were saying I was one of those people.
I was just stating it, so that my point could be made without confusion.
But i have to admit it’s seasonal, the winter does bring constant gaming to my life
June 28, 2004 at 1:37 pm #12999AnonymousInactive
Where do your pointers explain my “contradictions” in the idea of Emergence of story, from simple interactions? I think we’re expressing the same concerns… The linear time line is only one of the problems, and some games are trying to go beyond that, the issue is scope.
I’m mostly in favour of abstract gaming, maybe it transpires in my ideas! If I can play soccer for real why should I bother with a simulation?
On the other hand EndorFun, Rez, Tranquillity, even RayMan…
My main worry is that I felt boredom while playing a game I tought I liked, since I hope to make a living out of games, it kinda scared me :eek:
IMHO after checking Gamasutra and Edge hiring pages the role of game designer is still not a reality, at least in the European scene, the various team leaders and “experienced” staff do some R&D, I’ld bet there is rarely “A Vision”.
Not that super structured, highly specific design documents are necessarly a good approach.
I still think that story should come after the game world, especially when you go MMO. The setting, or world, and the rules by which it works, should be implemented so that all possible stories can come out of it!!! How many generations ahead is that?
June 28, 2004 at 2:24 pm #13001AnonymousInactive
What I was trying to bring to light ManE is that you express concern that the games is built around the story, which may be in many cases true, then you state that in Cinema(pulp fiction) the premise for the plot emergence is based around the narrative(or am I mistaken,excuse me if I am)..What we need is a game world that is fully organic, in gaming terms, i remember a lecture during the yaer at college:
” wouldn’t it be considered better that say your in a plain of land with emerging foliage, but not fully developed, you may decide to oleave this land for awhile…to venture else where, What if when you returned the foliage had sprung into fully grown trees, towering above you. This would be an evolving game world and one that is needed to further develop game design and theory”
that was an interesting point i thought, and more importantly an obvious one. and already I think mr Molyeneux is applying it to Fable. But this is only one factor that needs a revolution, everyone’s favourite genre has been “stuck” in it’s roots for some time, especially my favourite the RPG, the amount of cliche’s that are now indigenous to this genre is laughable, and the combat system in most isn’t plausable either.
An idea sprung to mind the other night, please bare with me here guys. I was playing Morrowind and greatly enjoyingb the scenery, but my first taste of in game combat left me filled with despair..it was dire to say the least, no better still it was hit and miss, literally.. so my mind wandered, what new battle system could be applied to rectify and maybe even heighten the enjoyment of the combat system??, Shenmue I though, Shenmue’s quick time reflex battle engine would be perfect, how many times have you been dressed to like devilish in a rpg only to fight like a drunken fool swinging sweeping brush?, in Shenmue you genuinely felt cool and powerful when this quick time battles arrived, because you knew that if you got it right the fight scene would look deadly, this method wouldn’t be all that different from the rpg’s random battles but would add excitment and rather more importantly a feeling of strenght to your Quest. hmmm more later i think.
sorry for blagging on
June 28, 2004 at 2:43 pm #13002AnonymousInactive
In my opinion you just have to compare a game like Zelda: OoT, which had a simple story, but still managed to draw the player into the game world using simple in-game cutscenes and a really nice flowing plotline, and Metal Gear which just frustrated players with more or less an uninteractive movie.
Sometimes a plot can’t be simple, of course, but if a plot is complex then it should be fast paced.
Complex plot thats fast paced = Interesting
Complex plot that is slow and drawn out = Boring
June 28, 2004 at 2:48 pm #13003AnonymousInactive
yes but what I’m saying is that the process of story telling in games should be reconsidered not modified,although your right that Zelda’s plot(s) was masterfully handled.
what really interests me is “why” the gameplay has to “break” whenever a plot development occurs. why can’t the player be directly involved in the development of the story, or better still why can’t the story accomodate the player and his/her actions in the game world????
June 28, 2004 at 3:22 pm #13009AnonymousInactive
Because every time you reach a bifurcation in the story, where the player is given the chance to make a choise, 2 new possibilities have to be considered.
After doing the maths, and realizing that humans make choises that go beyond option “a OR b”, you need a quantum computer just to know how many possible outcomes there will be.
Thats why we must learn from System theory and Complexity studies, embrace the idea of emergence, and create game worlds that are structurally closed, but open to an infinite amount of stories!!
The way to do that, IMHO, is to create a world that changes in Time, (with seasons, trees growing, etc.) but also entities that are beyond NPCs: they must be one with the world, and have the power to interact with it and manipulate it, for their non pre-determined purposes, forming simulated societies, and cultures, from which stories “come out” in a spontaneous manner.
The player, immersed in all this, has a higher degree of freedom, plus, in the case of a single player, is always the resolving factor around which big events occurr: he’s the Hero! But even that could be changed… Ahh the pleasure of being a peon…
June 28, 2004 at 3:26 pm #13010AnonymousInactive
Indeed ManE, an emergent world, much like the Matrix eh?.
June 28, 2004 at 3:33 pm #13011AnonymousInactive
The big problem, as far as I can see it, is that we always try to simulate human societies, and machines are not currently too good at that…
Something like Pikmin is more likely in the short run, each entity is slightly limited, and has generic abilyties, plus a few specialized features; none are mission specific “skills”, but they allow the “carrots” to interact with the world and player…
the story then evolves around him repairing his spaceship…
Quote, last one for today I hope:
On the last day of history, the ultimate computation will simulate the Universe and resurrect the dead!!!!
June 28, 2004 at 3:34 pm #13012AnonymousInactive
If you cannot create the possibilty of change then it is pointless to consider free roaming game design. The fact that you may need a Quantum computer to calculate these many possibilities is rather amusing… seeing as obviously Warren Spector has already tried this with the Deus Ex universe. But my idea is somewhat different, instead of being given the choice, what I am proposing is that you are given the chance to create the choice, knowning full well the outcome, I know this sounds contradictory, but think of it, If you were as you say ManE given a fully living world in which to dwell, would it not be incorrect to assume the player will never try to defer from his path, much like in last nights film “the Man on the Moon”, assuming mr Carey would never find out about the boundries enclosing him ultimatly lead to his freedom, much is the same with regards to the Gamer. Designers often assume that the player will never want to defferenciate with the game world.
hmmmm this is a quite the debatable topic, and obviously a outcome is possible.
June 28, 2004 at 3:37 pm #13013AnonymousInactive
Thats a fascinating ideal, one that may yet come true.
June 29, 2004 at 9:31 am #13025AnonymousInactive
After yesterdays heated debate, I decided to have a good old game for myself last night, seeing as i’m at morrowind at the moment, i booted up me x-box.
On the thought of freeform gamplay and the relationships between narrative and gameplay, I began to see that Morrowind is very close to this ideal, of “choice”. The fact that you are dropped into this world of morrowind to do as you please and at your own leasure is definatly a step in the right direction. game mechanics and combat issues aside, you are indeed free to do whatever you want. Be it help someone who needs aid or kill them!, it’s up to you, the player. The game world is so big that i honestly believe it would take you at least 3-4 hours to walk from one end to the other of the map, uninterrupted ofcourse.
June 29, 2004 at 10:24 am #13028AnonymousInactive
Morrowind is a good concept, but there where many bugs and the controls were so clunky that I got frustrated with it and gave up on it.
The combat was just awful!
If the combat and controls had been better executed then it could have been an amazing game.
June 29, 2004 at 10:42 am #13030AnonymousInactive
The combat was just awful!
If the combat and controls had been better executed then it could have been an amazing game. [/quote:c730d815c3]
I couldn’t agree more, the combat is just dire, it makes you wonder how can a development team that has spent their entire careers developing RPG’s get it so wrong, something along the lines of KOTHOR dungens and dragon’s 3rd edition rule set would have been much better.
It does hamper the game, but I find the “game world” just too enjoyable, it s a proper RPG…role playing game. plus you have to admit its some feat of programming. and it reminds me of Hyrule field
June 29, 2004 at 10:46 am #13031AnonymousInactive
I remember going to one of the guilds and I dropped one of my items(I think it was bread or something else trivial) into one of those storage baskets and they all just started attacking me! I didn’t steal anything…I GAVE them something and they all attacked me. I then ran out of the building….but everytime I went back in they were ALL waiting for me right behind the door and would attack me again……….bloody pain in the ass! :D
June 29, 2004 at 10:57 am #13032AnonymousInactive
IALL waiting for me right behind the door and would attack me again……….bloody pain in the ass! :D [/quote:c9ca432fd3]
You have to pay the guards a fine, then the civilians won’t attack!, I find it rather refreshing that all the desicions are up to the player, who you kill? why? and when?, or maybe who you don’t kill?, I was asked to assisinate someone last night, an Orc but i decided not to as he was friendly to me and gave me information. but now the guild i was working for dislike me.
I was then attacked by an asassin later on in the evening, presumibly from the fighters guild.
now their my enemy. brilliant
June 29, 2004 at 10:59 am #13033AnonymousInactive
You should give it another go Nooptical
June 29, 2004 at 11:26 am #13036AnonymousInactive
I tried to give it another go a couple of months ago…..but as soon as I started playing I was reminded of the how bad the controls were and stopped playing again! Also the fact that you have to walk alot doesn’t help. I mean, at least in Zelda you had a horse which you could use to travel faster…..I know there is those giant flea things in Morrowind but they are basically loading points to load up differant areas of the map!
June 29, 2004 at 11:29 am #13037AnonymousInactive
I know there is those giant flea things in Morrowind but they are basically loading points to load up differant areas of the map! [/quote:c61920283f]
Yeah, I’ve been reframing from using them as you miss out on some of the sites, I tend to walk, it feels like your really traversing a massive land mass.
June 29, 2004 at 12:19 pm #13039AnonymousInactive
But the problem is that it takes AGES to walk anywhere interesting. Not to mention those bloody annoying flying things that hinder your every move!
I remember simply upgrading my speed everytime just so I didn’t have to take ages to get anywhere! :p
June 30, 2004 at 7:35 am #13067AnonymousInactive
Ah well, not to everyones tastes so. a bit like marmite.
June 30, 2004 at 9:57 am #13069AnonymousInactive
I would agree with your Morrowind = Marmite analogy…….. ;)
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