- This topic has 18 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 7 months ago by
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hi guys,
i just registered here to ask you guys a question regarding computer game development.
i spoke to a girl that was doing a course on it in college and it sounded exactly what i would do. im not in college, im 22 and working for my father but after hearing about it i am considering applying at some point to do it in a college, my nearest would be carlow it and would have to apply as a mature student as some leaving cert grades were’nt higher lvl etc.my main question would be, is it hard? i know after you actually learn the processes it clicks,like learning anything. my main concern would be the maths involved as maths wasnt my favorite subject in school hehe.
the reason i am interested in this course etc is i love computer games, not just being lazy and playing them, i grew up with them on my sega megadrive and would love to be able to make actual games and software etc. i even built my own gaming rig so i can run crysis,arma2 etc no bother!
any advice would be greatly appreciated guys,
cheers,
Arron -
Hi, maths would not be that much of an issue if you are talking about an art role. It would be beneficial to have a better understanding of the inner workings of game engines at that level. Overall all an art role is largely without maths. If it’s a programming role your thinking of you’ll need it.
For an artist you would need to learn some industry standard software packages and processes. Overall the best asset is becoming a good artist with strong traditional art skills.
I’m in the art side of things so can talk more that if you want. Let us know what type of role you are thinking off.
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i would like to learn as much as i could really, i know the course i was looking at covers alot like coding, game physics,architecture ingame applied maths etc etc
the art part sounds good, it would be cool to create characters and weapons and vehicles.
i would mainly be interested in designing characters,weapons or the type of content within a game. -
I would recommend that you have a list of courses that you are considering of applying to and go along to the open days for them. This will give you a chance to talk to some people involved in the courses and get a better idea about them.
With regards to programming or art decision, could I throw another area into the mix? Have you considered game design? If you do most of the traditional CS courses this will never come up (obviously) and a lot of the Computer Game degrees only touch on this (from what I can see they often seem to focus more on the programming and asset creation side of things). If you think that you have the ability to think up some good games but the best you can draw in matchstick men then this might be worth considering.
I think that Ernest Adams (http://www.designersnotebook.com/) was in some Irish colleges last year and will probably be back again this year to give a game design workshop. I remember that the guys here posted the details of the events here.
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Yup, my advice would be the same.
If your a maths and science person, programming will (or most likely) come naturally to you. Comp Sci degree, 4 years, specialise in graphics and maths papers as much as possible. Pick up and play with Ogre, Unity, and all the rest on your free time.
If your an art person, can draw (very well), the look at some kind of traditional Art degree, with plenty of CAD practical work (photoshop, illustrator, Autocad) and move into 3D stuff once you’ve got the core fundamental art skills well and truly sorted.
If neither of the above appeals, or some semblance of both, then level design is a career path to look at. I’d recommend some kind of "general purpose" degree, like multimedia, which has a mix, then look at all the mod tools that are out there.
But…in my experience Level Designers do not get paid that much, just fyi…
Thats my 2 cents…
B.
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While level design might be an option I was talking a bit more about the game design that the likes of Will Wright are known for. I know that this is at the very upper end of the scale of what anyone would hope to achieve as a game designer but it is a part of the industry (the guys here working in industry probably have more to say on that).
Would it be safe to say that the route into this area is a little less well defined? In that there are people from various other disciplines that get into it, unlike the art and programming sides. There was a really good free online course that covered some game design basics. It was run over the summer but all the details are still available at
http://gamedesignconcepts.wordpress.com/You can have a game with the most amazing graphics and features but if it is not well designed it will generally piss people off quite quickly.
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thanks for the info guys, good reading and knowledge. yeah il have to look into all the diffrent parts and see what i would like to do. i appreciate the info alot, thanks
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The role of game designer tends to draw a lot of attention from people starting out. Everyone wants to be the next Suda, Shigeru, or whatever.
The start and harsh reality is this.
You can not become a "game designer" overnight. And, IMO, you cannot learn to become a game designer in a classroom.
Every single person in the world has "one great idea for a game that would be awesome…" as they’ve "played games all their lives."
I’ve watched TV all my life – doesn’t mean I’m qualified to build a TV. And certainly doesn’t qualify me to create, design, or implement a TV show.
Its that simple.
There. I said it. Let the flame wars begin.
But I would like to add why I believe the above is true.
Any of the "game designers" I know, are all former programmers. they worked the long hours and hard-slog, spent 5+ years doing it.
They know what is technically achievable, realistic, and how long that functionality takes. They are pragmatic, experienced and informed.
There are "art people" who do the same – spend 5+ years doing the hard graft of modelling or animation, or whatever, and they can put ideas together and forward, but like most things "art" it tends to be unrealistic and "too out there."
I can hear the steam coming out of some people’s ears, but its just my 2 cents.
AND even then, how many jobs are out there for "games designers"? How many studios have "game designers" on staff? 1 or 2 out of 40 people? compared to 20 programmers, 15 artists, 3 proj mgrs, 3 producers?
AND the likelihood of a studio bringing in someone with a BA in "Games Design" and handing them the reigns on a new project? 1000/1? In fact even that is generous odds – as I have never ever heard of this occurring.
Maybe I’ll come back and edit this post – and pull my punches a bit – but for now at least, its being posted.
B.
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Will wright – programmer
Sid Meier – programmer
Alexey Pajitnov – programmer
Peter Molyneux – programmer
David Perry – programmer
Shigeru Miyamoto – programmer
feel free to add…
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hi guys,
i just registered here to ask you guys a question regarding computer game development.
i spoke to a girl that was doing a course on it in college and it sounded exactly what i would do. im not in college, im 22 and working for my father but after hearing about it i am considering applying at some point to do it in a college, my nearest would be carlow it and would have to apply as a mature student as some leaving cert grades were’nt higher lvl etc.[/quote:aeb4f2a168]Carlow is a good option. I’ve been there so I can vouch for it :wink:
my main question would be, is it hard? i know after you actually learn the processes it clicks,like learning anything. my main concern would be the maths involved as maths wasnt my favorite subject in school hehe.[/quote:aeb4f2a168]
Very hard, but very much achievable if you have the interest and the work ethic etc. But… TBH if the course you are doing is not hard then it is not worth your while doing. If you are not being challenged then how are you improving your skills ?
Maths wasn’t exactly my favorite in school either but I found once you actually have a use for it, believe it or not, it acutally becomes interesting! Once you find an interest in a subject it becomes much much easier to learn and use.
TBH I think this is a big fault of the way math is taught in schools at the moment; they throw bookloads of stuff at you and expect you to learn- without ever giving a reason why.
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Shigeru Miyamoto – programmer
feel free to add…[/quote:ec26805865]
really? wow, thought he was an out and out artist
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Will wright – programmer
Sid Meier – programmer
Alexey Pajitnov – programmer
Peter Molyneux – programmer
David Perry – programmer
Shigeru Miyamoto – programmer
feel free to add…[/quote:179aad4525]
Respectfully, I’d like to add a minor caution here – those people (maybe Perry aside) were all programmers, who crossed into game design at a time when games tended to be very simple creations, frequently worked on by a single developer. Tools were very technical to use, and roles weren’t specialized, and there were few non programmers making games.
The games industry is immensely different now, and the career paths that those people took into game design aren’t necessarily relevant to current and future situations.That said, I’m a programmer, and I like to design games for fun as a hobby. The fact that I’m a programmer means I can make the games I design, and learn from my mistakes. If I was trying to learn to be a game designer, without knowing how to program, that could be harder to do. Tools are always changing though.
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The thing is, game design isn’t necessarily clearly defined in every company. Here’s a few talking points, feel free to disagree. I’m sure someone like Ian can weigh in and give good advice.
Theres often a hodge podge input of producer, executive (external publisher) producer, studio boss, lead tech, lead art, lead design, marketing exec and maybe a concept champion contributing significantly to the high level decisions. They are doing that bit which people consider to be the "gameplay designer role". It’s very possible that one of those people IS the lead designer as such, but it could vary as who that might be – sometimes the studio boss, sometimes the publisher and maybe once in a while an actual hired game designer :)
Then everyone else is involved in the finer details of the implementation from art to sound and programming. By the often mechanical and logical nature of most gameplay, programmers get a bunch of say in this and there’s often more than one way to solve the given problem/feature. But also the level designers and gameplay script/trigger writers get a big say in the way things will play out and of course the look and feel is contributed to strongly by an array of artists, level/environment designers, sound engineers, graphics programmers etc.
Finally there’s the designers – and unless they are scripters or level designers – it’s very likely that designers are documentation writers. This is a highly communicative role and rather heavy in administration. Lists of items maintained, lists of interactions, lots of diagrams and lots of concepting. But often not as a lead, but more a "passer on" and "cleaner" of high level concepts into more detailed implementation. It’s no surprise that many designers drift towards or come from programming – it’s a very very good way to get control over the implementations of ideas. Plus programming absolutely requires an understanding knowledge of how to design, and design given real constraints. A programmer who can actually do some good marketable blue sky concepting or high level design is probably worth their weight in gold – the current old-vangard of the games industry is littered with programmers from the 80’s who got there as the natural selection of programmers who had those skills. So I’m with Brendan on this one. But I’m not sure the future necessarily requires programmer-designers going forward, especially as the tools improve and design courses improve.
There’s a strong argument that there really only should be one person in control of the design – design by committe naturally finds a weaker average set of ideas, or misses the point altogether – but it doesn’t always hold out in reality. And there are examples of place like Valve where the design role is effectively distributed over everyone rather deliberately – the belief being that it’s only small concentrated teams of people who are all considering design at the same time that good results are achieved. I.e. execution is the biggest issue facing games development teams, not design as such. But I do suspect there are naturally more dominant decision makers at Valve, it’s just that they’ve choosen to create a process that suits the creation and communication of new concepts over everything else.
Another popular idea is that there should be a lead designer and there should be a producer – the producer manages the over all process, the designer is in charge of high level concept – the two keep each other in check. This is an idea from tv/film.
There’s also the complaint that it seems that college gameplay design courses are not taken seriously (and are often not seriously on this planet – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbIWN8bufWI) and in places like some publishers who had only hired designers from the testing department (instead of from art/prog etc). Is that a problem? It is for many implementing the solutions who find the lack of understanding of the creation process a big problem. It’s also promoting a low pay job that others in the team don’t really respect much either, everyone always thinks they can do better. Plus the nature of game design doesn’t really allow for the slicing of the design into sections (e.g. in an fps game you can’t really say – ok I’m lead designer for this level, but you can be lead for the other one) – it’s a holistic problem for which the delegation can often only be a question of designing at finer levels of detail given a high level framework.
So the 4 primary routes I see people taking to becoming the rare role of head designers in order of likelihood.
1) An internal promotion from another role – testing, producer, programming, level design, other. I.e. once you are in a company you can start to show your flair for design.
2) Become an indie developer. Or similarly become studio-head / boss and spend your time designing (tut tut).
3) Make a famous modification and get hired. This is a great way to learn all about how projects really work. It’s pretty rare that most people actually finish a volunteer project and create new compelling gameplay but many people in the industry have gotten their first gig this way.
4) Get hired as a junior designer and work your way up (something which will probably happen a bit more if college courses improve and companies take them more seriously).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbIWN8bufWI[/quote:f28b5cf55c]
Lol… Couldn’t be more misleading if it tried. Great PR work.. :lol:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbIWN8bufWI[/quote:be133feedd]
Lol… Couldn’t be more misleading if it tried. Great PR work.. :lol:[/quote:be133feedd]
Yup, that ad sums it up.
I take on board the points you guys raised, and yes, the examples of game designers that I gave, are in fairness the 1980s-1990’s gang, who didn’t have the tools at their disposal and so had to be programmers to begin with.
Granted, that has now changed, as every PC game is shipping with a mod kit. This is all well and good – but I would like to point out that knowing the ins-and-outs of UnrealEd (or equivalent) does not a game designer make.
It makes you a script kid, or a level designer.
Also accepted, is that a "modern" game designer (if we’re agreed on that term, e.g. a late 90’s-2k’s designer) can and do come from other disciplines, e.g. psychologists, film, tv, creative writing, etc. I recently read that F.E.A.R. had a psychologist on the payroll. Cool.
However, to clarify a point I made about "you can’t be a game designer overnight", what I meant was that "game design" and their dedicated courses are often sold to kids as being "easy" quick paths to the top of the Ubisoft ladder, where you’ll get a seat right next to Jade. Sign up now!
And the rebuttal was that "game programmers" and "game artists" are not made overnight either.I think everyone accepts that game programming is hard. Really hard. And likewise there’s a "tip of the hat" to the art gang as well, as they have the highest expectations with the smallest budgets. So its hard there too. And I don’t think anyone tries to advertise otherwise. But game design courses, seem to sell themselves as "come play games, ‘critique’ them, and do some CryEngine tutorials and you are a game designer."
I think this is a bad idea and doesn’t represent a plausible career path for someone who wants to be the next Hideo.
And I go back to the point about "modern" game designers – they are still qualified, leaders in their field – I’m sure a psychology degree for example is not easy, and is not advertised as being easy – who are simply crossing over into a field that would compliment their skills.
The model where these "cross-over modern" game designers are then paired up with a well-informed internal producer or proj. mgr. helps to fill in the gap – but again the point here is that even these highly qualified individuals still need an assistant or partner with the domain-specific skills and knowledge of 3+ years industry grind for them to operate.
SeamusP, my points were not directed at you, specifically or otherwise, so if you took offense, it was not intended.
B.
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and on a lighter note, here’s some more videos that are on point:
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SeamusP
Fair enough. I think there is agreement amidst our crossfire. I’m am 100% of the belief that a "game designer" should sure-as-sh1t know their way around every type of game, Magic (and similar), D&D (and similar), Risk, Warhammer, Snap, Cricket, Polo, Netball, etc.
Everything. That was one of my major points – that UnrealEd is by no means enough or ample.
And, to be honest, I would expect a "game designer" to know a fair amount of psychology (cognitive), humanities, anthropology, etc.
Everything and anything that gets to the very core of why people play.
I’ve read Koster’s book, found it abstract – but I suppose it is intended to be. I think Bob Bates’ was more to my liking as it was more "case-study" driven. Rollings and Adams was also good, as it covered "puzzle design" in a very general sense which again, is a very important component (IMO) for a games designer. Even Crawford’s book from the 1980’s is still pretty much on the mark when it talks about "challenge design."
Anyway, I think we’re agreed and had different points to make, which have been well and truly thrashed out.
More than happy to swap comments further at the next (Oct/Nov) shindig.
-Brendan.
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