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This topic contains 61 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by  dillon 9 years, 12 months ago.

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  • #6087

    gizmo
    Participant

    As the title suggests the BBFC has rejected Rockstar’s Manhunt 2, banning the title from sale anywhere in the UK. There have been several follow ups since the announcment from both the BBFC denying any political pressure in the decision making process and from the ELSPA praising the monitoring body. Frankly I find the situation laughable, regardless of the content of the game. The mere fact that you can now buy the likes of Cannibal Holocaust on DVD (if you don’t know what it is then you pretty much don’t want to see it) shoots down the BBFCs statement that…

    "…the Board’s carefully considered view is that to issue a certificate to Manhunt 2, on either platform, would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors, within the terms of the Video Recordings Act, and accordingly that its availability, even if statutorily confined to adults, would be unacceptable to the public."[/quote:c51a02cea0]
    While I am torn on the issue of violent video games being sold to teenagers the idea of banning it due to the effect it may have on adults is absolutuly ridiclous.

    Manhunt 2 banned in UK
    BBFC denies political pressure
    ELSPA praises UK ratings system after Manhunt 2 banning

  • #37332

    Squash-n-Stretch
    Participant

    That’s great if it sticks. Will teach idiot developers to not make tasteless games which feature violence purely for the sake of violence.

  • #37339

    eDen
    Participant

    There’s the whole freedom of speech thing as well, although I think this game is just pretty much more balls out violence then the first one.

    In the first game the violence and the suspense sort of went hand in hand. I don’t think the suspense plays quite the same part in it. But STILL, just rate it adults only like they have in the US and leave it at that.

    Also, this is one of the first titles where the Wii version looks the best. It uses the remote in really cool ways, for example: When you are hiding in the shadows, there is a mechanic where the ‘enemy’ peers into the darkness and you must keep the two controllers perfectly still.

    I think people will miss out on this title though, i would have bought it. And it would have been a good game to get on the PSP.

    Also, will it be available here in Ireland even though most of the games shops here are English owned? I hope they still get it.

  • #37341

    omen
    Participant

    In fairness, the BBFC have a good rep. They really do try to give recommendations on how to change a game / movie so that it passes. The fact that they couldn’t do this for Manhunt 2 suggests that the game was WAY over the top.

  • #37342

    John Kelly
    Participant

    Manhunt 2 now banned in Ireland. This is a farce. Rate the game 18+ and be done with it. This seems to be on the back of the BBFC banning the game which fly’s in the face of recent reports that gamers dont become as emotionally involved in games as they do in films. If they ban this then Texas chainsaw massacre, hostel 2, 28 weeks later (anyone remember the pointless and over the top eye gouging?) and 1000’s of other films as well as books should be banned. Im an adult and I can discriminate between reality and fiction. I think i should decide what is appropriate for me not the state.

  • #37343

    aphra
    Keymaster

    is this the first video game to be banned in Ireland? anyone know.

    It certainly has been years since they have so it would be interesting to find out why they thought this was so much worse that other games and for that matter films, videos and DVDs.

    Also will be interesting to see how it is treated in the US

    Aphra.

  • #37344

    Max Marshall
    Participant

    Also in related news, Law and Order: Double or Nothing has also been banned this week, the reason being it contains an image of the abduction of murdered toddler James Bulger.

    LINK

  • #37345

    Matthew
    Participant

    I wasnt getting manhunt 2 anyway so i cant say i care that much.

  • #37346

    omen
    Participant

    Law and Order: Double or Nothing wasn’t banned, it was withdrawn.

    US have rated Manhunt 2 as AO, Aduly Only, the first AO game rating. They were hoping for a Mature rating.

    I think you’re over-reacting JohnMonkey. As I said, the BBFC have a good rep for trying to help companies to get passed. The game was in such a state that the only recommendation would have been to re-do the game… Its obviously a nasty nasty game. Never played the first one, but judging from Rockstar’s previous track record, they would have been pushing everything to the limit with this game.

  • #37347

    Idora
    Participant

    Manhunt 2 now banned in Ireland. This is a farce. Rate the game 18+ and be done with it. This seems to be on the back of the BBFC banning the game which fly’s in the face of recent reports that gamers dont become as emotionally involved in games as they do in films. If they ban this then Texas chainsaw massacre, hostel 2, 28 weeks later (anyone remember the pointless and over the top eye gouging?) and 1000’s of other films as well as books should be banned. Im an adult and I can discriminate between reality and fiction. I think i should decide what is appropriate for me not the state.[/quote:d24087f6db]Is it banned inIreland though?! Haven’t seen any articles, online or otherwise, about this yet. BBFC has no jurisidiction in Ireland… Although that’s not to say our own censors office, IFCO, won’t follow their lead.

    Would be interested to see confirmation of this… Anyone else seen anything on it?

    I’d be in Omen’s camp on this one

  • #37348

    spuss
    Participant

    From Wikipedia:

    It has been officially announced that the game will be banned from the United Kingdom and Ireland because of its violence and grossness, meaning the game cannot legally be sold anywhere in both countries.[/quote:7cd32679b1]

    Not sure what that statement is based on though.
    Edit:
    Found it http://www.ifco.ie/ifco/ifcoweb.nsf/web/news?opendocument&news=yes&type=graphic

  • #37349

    CianMCL
    Participant

    bollox i was really lookin forward to this game. is the Wii region free???

  • #37350

    Max Marshall
    Participant

    Since Manhunt has been banned in the UK, and also it seems in Ireland too, will there be English language PAL versions of the game published or developed at all?

  • #37351

    Afro_Dude
    Participant

    I haven’t played the 1st Manhunt, so I can’t really say I’d like the 2nd. All the same tis a shame that Rockstar London’s 1st game won’t be able to be bought in their own country :? Sucks dudnt it?

    The Wii version sounds the most interesting of the 3, but I don’t have the Wii so meh. I could understand the frustration some gamers who’re looking forward to this release must have. Now the only way you’ll be able to play it is on import :evil:

    Btw 1st post yay!

  • #37352

    John Kelly
    Participant

    I do agree its a nasty game, really not my cup of tea. Having said that I have a real problem with banning any film, book, movie or game. Simply put with this game getting banned it paves the way for other games to get banned. With or without just cause. It is a huge opening for the Jack Thompsons of this world, who will kick up stink about a game with poorly informed "facts". Bully anyone? So the next time the tabloids decide to have a go at a game, I wont be shocked when its banned.

  • #37354

    CianMCL
    Participant

    it made the 12 o clock news

  • #37355

    Skyclad
    Participant

    Radio last night seemed to indicate it was banned in Ireland too now.

    Dave

  • #37356

    gizmo
    Participant

    Yep, it is now officially banned in Ireland too, also becoming the first game to be banned in the process. Link also has the Morning Ireland interview with John Kelleher which is interesting as he says during it that the IFCO is not tasked with censoring games except when they contain material which breaches the Censors Act, interesting. :/

    Link

    The censor said he recognised that in some films or video games strong graphic violence may be a justifiable element within the overall context of the work.

    But he said that in the case of this game, there was no context and the brutality was unrelenting and gratuitous.[/quote:308b5d22e5]
    Absolute rubbish and not even true. The violence is in the context of the game, the question should have been whether it is "too much". Anyway as I said there are far worse films out there at the moment which have gotten through.

  • #37358

    ian_hannigan
    Participant

    kind of stating the bleeding obvious here but…

    Rockstar "disappointed" at Manhunt 2 ban
    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=25930

  • #37359

    mal
    Participant

    > Rockstar "disappointed" at Manhunt 2 ban

    Rockstar also "over the moon" at "free" Manhunt 2 publicity

  • #37360

    gizmo
    Participant

    Well they would be if they could sell it anywhere. UK and Ireland sales gone, AO rating in the US means it won’t be in the major stores like Walmart etc… Germany is a goner too of course and France will probably follow suit.

    That said, an amusing little catch…

    The BBFC has refused to certify the PlayStation 2 and Wii editions of Manhunt 2, meaning that it will not be legal to sell in the UK (however it will be legal to own), unless Rockstar makes extreme changes and resubmits it, or appeals the ruling.[/quote:2969deae79]
    Play.com will have a field day :)

  • #37361

    ian_hannigan
    Participant

    I do agree its a nasty game, really not my cup of tea. Having said that I have a real problem with banning any film, book, movie or game. Simply put with this game getting banned it paves the way for other games to get banned. With or without just cause. It is a huge opening for the Jack Thompsons of this world, who will kick up stink about a game with poorly informed "facts". Bully anyone? So the next time the tabloids decide to have a go at a game, I wont be shocked when its banned.[/quote:81136752f0]

    Couldn’t agree more!

  • #37362

    ian_hannigan
    Participant

    Well they would be if they could sell it anywhere. UK and Ireland sales gone, AO rating in the US means it won’t be in the major stores like Walmart etc… Germany is a goner too of course and France will probably follow suit.

    That said, an amusing little catch…

    The BBFC has refused to certify the PlayStation 2 and Wii editions of Manhunt 2, meaning that it will not be legal to sell in the UK (however it will be legal to own), unless Rockstar makes extreme changes and resubmits it, or appeals the ruling.[/quote:2e72da39f3]
    Play.com will have a field day :)[/quote:2e72da39f3]

    The single easiest way to make people really want something is to make it that little bit more elusive ;) R* fans will get their grubby little paws on it if they want it that bad one way or another.

  • #37363

    amethyst
    Participant

    I don’t play manhunt, the idea of the game doesn’t really appeal to me much. In fairness, if IFCO banned it must be pretty bad. Ireland doesn’t censor much. There are many films and games that are banned in the UK that are not banned here. Some even get lower ratings.

  • #37364

    anthony
    Participant

    I just heard John Kelleher (finally I can put a voice to the signature before all those movies! :lol:) being interviewed on the radio on the way home, he said he doesn’t like to ban anything but it’s the unrelenting violence in Manhunt 2 that got it banned.

    He was asked about why movies like Saw or Hostel aren’t banned and he said it was all about the context of the violence.

    I read about the Wii version in EDGE this month and I think the stabbing and strangulation motions might be taking things a bit too far, but then how else can you do it with motion sensitive controls!

    @anthonycosgrave

  • #37365

    aphra
    Keymaster

    I think they will be talking about the game on Drivetime on radio 1 this evening. You can also listen live on http://www.rte.ie and go the radio section

    Aphra.

  • #37366

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    It should not be banned, end of story. Slap an 18 certificate on it and that means that it is for adults.

    Let me spell that out for the BBFC; A-D-U-L-T-S

  • #37367

    Barry Gallagher
    Participant

    The feeling I get from people who I know who I wouldnt consider gamers (not that they havent played games) when talking about the violence issue is that games are different due to the interactive element. You are participant rather then viewer.

    Offcourse I dont agree with this but it’s something to keep in mind when arguing against it.

  • #37369

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    Licensed third-parties forbidden to release AO titles

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=25965

    I guess they’ll have to make cuts?

  • #37370

    boadle
    Participant

    I think the comparison between film and game is out of context in cases like these. There is a distinction between:

    a) passively watching a recreation of someone sawing off another persons head

    and

    b) actively pretending to be that killer, and physically and strenuously carrying out the actions required (Wii) to saw off a persons head, and subsequently being rewarded for correct execution of this killing.

    There is no justifiable reason for such a game to exist, and the Libertarian Hand-Wringers (of which I generally class myself) occassionally need to put aside their precious Right to Free Speech, and realise that this game can encourage, train, excite or intrigue a small minority of the population into acts of violence.

    Yeah, it’s only a game. But it’s essentially a snuff game. Wake up.

  • #37372

    omen
    Participant

    I’m really glad I didn’t work on that game…thinking up more and more ways of being gratuitously violent and showing it in high detail. 2 years working on a game like that must do your head in.

  • #37373

    omen
    Participant

    And a point made in the office about Jack T.

    "On the contrary, I’d guess Jacko to be annoyed that he has nothing to complain about this time round. Indeed, it even shows the system to actually work in some way, and suggests he was making mountains out of mole hills before."

    So, whilest this game proves his case that maybe there are bad games out there, it also proves that there is a system to prevent them getting into the hands of people :)

  • #37375

    feral
    Participant

    I think the comparison between film and game is out of context in cases like these. There is a distinction between:
    a) passively watching a recreation of someone sawing off another persons head
    and
    b) actively pretending to be that killer, and physically and strenuously carrying out the actions required (Wii) to saw off a persons head, and subsequently being rewarded for correct execution of this killing. [/quote:d417531f28]

    Have to disagree with this line of logic.
    Isn’t (b) what actors do when they are producing movies that contain (a)?
    Would you ban the production of such movies (because their production involves the actors doing (b))?

    I once saw a particular production of Carmen, where (b) happened on stage, and there was no doubt that the actor was being rewarded for the correct execution etc. So, would you ban people performing Carmen on this grounds? I assume you wouldn’t, because even though someone was actively pretending to be a killer, physically and strenuously carrying out the actions, they were just pretending, in the context of a piece of art.

    I don’t think, therefore the difference in the passiveness versus the activeness of games vs movies is so pivotal. Many viewers when watching an actor in a movie, for example, subconsciously put themselves in the place of the protagonist. (I shall not cite specific genres where this is particularly prevalent).

  • #37376

    feral
    Participant

    Should I, as an adult, ever be prevented from playing a video game, because someone else judges it unsuitable for me?
    I, personally, speaking for myself, don’t believe so. I believe the decision should be left to me, and I believe in my own ability to view the subject matter, or steer clear from it, in such a way that it will not negatively affect my dealings with other people (influence me to be a killer, be less nice etc).

    But should we, as a society, ever ban specific video games, because they essentially contain so much badness, and have so little benefit, we as a society are better off without them? Can I conceive of any game where this would be true? Or are all games free speech and should never be banned as such?

    I acknowledge the free speech argument, and certainly we should be very hesitant to ban things. But what if the subject matter was considerably worse than that of Manhunt 2? What if a video game had, say, gratuitous child murder, or abuse, or incitement to racial hatred as it’s sole purpose? I think I would be in favor of banning such a game. I think many people would.

    While I personally think I would choose to avoid playing such a game, and while I would ideally like that choice to be left up to me, I don’t know or trust everyone else as much as I trust me. And so, I would be willing to give up my right to choose to play such a game, to have the game banned, for the greater good.
    (In much the same way, I am willing to give up my right to drive as fast as I want on the road – not because I think I will drive faster than I should, but because everyone mightn’t use their judgment; so we have an enforced speed limit, and we sacrifice our freedom to choose how fast to go, for safer roads).

    So, given this, I think I believe it’s acceptable to ban some games. It must be used very very carefully, though.

    So is Manhunt2 one of these games thats so bad it warrants banning? My most honest answer is, I don’t know – I have not played it.
    The BBFC claim to have investigated it thoroughly. I haven’t been following them closely, but their statement seemed reasonable, and though there have been a lot of cries that they are being pandering to the british tabloid media, it must be said their treatment of Bully did seem very even handed.

    On the other hand, people almost banned Mortal Kombat back in the day, so you have to be very careful…

    Are different standards been applied for video games and movies?
    This is an interesting point, some people’s posts above very validly ask this question, and cite some good examples. However, I don’t see any inconsistency of treatment of video games vs movies as, in itself, not an argument against banning Manhunt2.

  • #37378

    anthony
    Participant

    I don’t think this was posted yet, these are the folks that rate games (for Europe):

    http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/175

    IIRC John Kelleher said that PEGI don’t have the ability to actually ban a game, so in the case of Manhunt 2 I think they were only able to give it the highest rating possible…I wonder would they have banned it if they could?

    @anthonycosgrave

  • #37379

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    Good points Feral :!:

    Could be media pressure; they don’t understand games and are therefore afraid of them.

  • #37380

    Ronny
    Participant

    Damian and Lewis have hit it bang on the head.

    I strongly belief in our freedom of speech and the choice of an adult to decide what is harmful for him, and for that reason I would not have banned the game. But some game developers fail to realise they have a social responsibility. Hopefully this will help them to see that they don’t have a license to create extreme violence for the sake of it.

    While we certainly don’t want media pressure having us ban every game under the sun, we don’t want to use that as a reason to be afraid of censoring ourselves.

  • #37381

    ian_hannigan
    Participant
  • #37385

    omen
    Participant
  • #37386

    boadle
    Participant

    Most of the responses pro-Manhunt 2 responses to this debate, on this forum, on others, and the wider media, have been along the lines of ‘noone has the right to tell me what I can play. I have a right to play whatever I want to"

    This is entirely true, and I would hate to see that right impinged upon. However, I would like to see a more society-centric view. Not everyone has our sense of right and wrong, our decision-making acumen, our social empathy.

    There are a lot of people out there with Aspergers syndrome and empathy-related illnesses, not to mention a hell of a lot of TV-brainwashed kids, willing to be led, desperate to impress their buddies with a brutal act that earns ‘respect’ (Happy Slapping, anyone?),

    Why put the seed of an idea in these peoples heads?

  • #37387

    omen
    Participant

    Interesting commentary on the subject on gamesindustry too.
    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26012

    Main gist if you’re not wanting to read…
    BBFC has matured a lot over the years…Carmageddan was banned 10 years ago, that wouldn’t happen now.
    However, bit of aprehension as it the first banned game under the reformed BBFC.
    Preference to German and US rating system as they’re authorities cannot ban, but just rate AO and then there is self censorship by the hardware manufacturers.
    The fact that the BBFC did ban it, means that R* went way way way over the line.
    "Unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone in an overall game context which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing" is the key reason given for the ban.
    Whilest people argue about the similarities to Saw and Hostel, the difference is you are an outside viewer, in Manhunt you are the first person murderer, no other media does this except literature (American Psycho, (the film wasn’t the same))
    R* screwed up.

  • #37389

    CianMCL
    Participant

    omen didnt you work for rockstar??

  • #37390

    omen
    Participant

    Yup, was in the Leeds office for a few months before deciding the Rockstar life wasn’t for me.

  • #37391

    CianMCL
    Participant

    ah rite i remember you saying that at dare launch alright.

    postal 2 designer on manhunt 2

    http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172928.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;8

  • #37392

    boadle
    Participant

    Interesting commentary on the subject on gamesindustry too.
    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26012[/quote:b138a0f8da]
    Apologies for the ridiculous animated ad you may well see alongside this story. I’m to blame for that piece of inanity (but I didn’t write the script!)

  • #37394

    Red
    Participant

    Most of the responses pro-Manhunt 2 responses to this debate, on this forum, on others, and the wider media, have been along the lines of ‘noone has the right to tell me what I can play. I have a right to play whatever I want to"

    This is entirely true, and I would hate to see that right impinged upon. However, I would like to see a more society-centric view. Not everyone has our sense of right and wrong, our decision-making acumen, our social empathy.

    There are a lot of people out there with Aspergers syndrome and empathy-related illnesses, not to mention a hell of a lot of TV-brainwashed kids, willing to be led, desperate to impress their buddies with a brutal act that earns ‘respect’ (Happy Slapping, anyone?),

    Why put the seed of an idea in these peoples heads?[/quote:b40f4bc6cb]

    I in our culture of equality is generally automatically translated into we, as we all deserve to be treated the same.

    But taking Happy Slapping as an example, is there a particular seed that struck people? did the idea of happy slapping spontaneously develop and spread through the misuse* of new technology?

    Is censorship the answer to preventing such undesirable** behaviour?
    I don’t see Manhunt 2 not being distributed as much of a loss for society in general.

    *misuse: a use not intended by the designer
    **I at least find it undesirable

  • #37395

    boadle
    Participant

    But taking Happy Slapping as an example, is there a particular seed that struck people? did the idea of happy slapping spontaneously develop and spread through the misuse* of new technology?[/quote:015091fef6]

    It spread the same way most things do, through imitation.

    Is censorship the answer to preventing such undesirable** behaviour?[/quote:015091fef6]

    In an ideal world, no. But in a world where the suits at Rockstar will make a decision to develop a game as twisted as this, it may be the only recourse.

    I don’t see Manhunt 2 not being distributed as much of a loss for society in general. [/quote:015091fef6]

    I couldn’t agree more. Furthermore, it will dissuade other developers from tredding that particular path.

  • #37398

    eDen
    Participant

    I think the comparison between film and game is out of context in cases like these. There is a distinction between:
    a) passively watching a recreation of someone sawing off another persons head
    and
    b) actively pretending to be that killer, and physically and strenuously carrying out the actions required (Wii) to saw off a persons head, and subsequently being rewarded for correct execution of this killing. [/quote:a8a0012c3d]

    Have to disagree with this line of logic.
    Isn’t (b) what actors do when they are producing movies that contain (a)?
    Would you ban the production of such movies (because their production involves the actors doing (b))?

    I once saw a particular production of Carmen, where (b) happened on stage, and there was no doubt that the actor was being rewarded for the correct execution etc. So, would you ban people performing Carmen on this grounds? I assume you wouldn’t, because even though someone was actively pretending to be a killer, physically and strenuously carrying out the actions, they were just pretending, in the context of a piece of art.

    I don’t think, therefore the difference in the passiveness versus the activeness of games vs movies is so pivotal. Many viewers when watching an actor in a movie, for example, subconsciously put themselves in the place of the protagonist. (I shall not cite specific genres where this is particularly prevalent).[/quote:a8a0012c3d]

    Feral you have hit the nail on the head.

    I realise that we can’t comment on the content of this game that much because none of us have played it, but it’s really up to an adult whether or not they want to play this game, in the same vein that it’s up to an adult if they want to attend a movie screening/rent a movie/see a play no matter what the content involves or portrays. In every medium the public will show how they feel about the subject matter and/or the over all production of the project in ratings and reviews of said product. In my opinion this should not be decided by a small group of people who are not reflective of the market as a whole.

  • #37399

    boadle
    Participant

    This debate surfaced in the pub last night, and the turning point of the discussion was when I said: would you play a game where you as the protagonist had to torture animals? What about a game where you were a paedophile?

    No?

    Probably not, and you might even be happy to see it banned, which dispels the ‘artistic license’ and ‘freedom of expression’ defence.

    The point is that a line, somewhere, has to be drawn. People differ in opinion over where this line should be drawn, but I imagine everyone would agree the line should exist, especially when you invoke ‘Kiddy Fiddler Simulator’

  • #37401

    Skyclad
    Participant

    would you play a game where you as the protagonist had to torture animals?[/quote:5795862bf4]
    The question isn’t whether I would personally play it, but rather "is there a market for such a game – are there enough people who would be interested in such a game to merit the production costs?"

    What about a game where you were a paedophile?[/quote:5795862bf4]
    Hypothetical situation: imagine a scientific report showed that those who played a game involving paedophilia were less likely to actually go out and perform the act (which parallels the violence argument closely). Should it not only be acceptable to play such a game but actually recommended that such a game be created for treatment purposes?

    No?

    Probably not, and you might even be happy to see it banned, which dispels the ‘artistic license’ and ‘freedom of expression’ defence.
    [/quote:5795862bf4]
    Answering your own questions in a leading manner? Hardly unbiased :)

    As a moral relativist, I view the act of banning something as the imposition of an absolute set of values and thus restricting my own ability to choose for myself. One only has to look at the laughable set of films banned in the past in Ireland to see how society evolves over time and how yesterday’s banning is tomorrow’s classic.

    The point is that a line, somewhere, has to be drawn. People differ in opinion over where this line should be drawn, but I imagine everyone would agree the line should exist, especially when you invoke ‘Kiddy Fiddler Simulator'[/quote:5795862bf4]
    The problem is that there is noone who can be trusted to actually draw the line – every decision to ban is a subjective one. The only solution is to allow a free market to dictate whether or not there is a demand for such a game and to avoid sensationalising it to the point that people buy it because they have heard of it and want to be able to claim they have played it rather than any interest in the actual game. So….everyone does not agree the line should exist :)

    Anyway, a few badly argued points here just so people can come back in a nice vitriolic fashion :)

    Dave

  • #37402

    kyotokid
    Keymaster

    This debate surfaced in the pub last night, and the turning point of the discussion was when I said: would you play a game where you as the protagonist had to torture animals? What about a game where you were a paedophile?
    [/quote:6c372e3437]

    Apart the gameplay problems I could see being a protagonist in the game you suggestion, what about the case in other media where there have been paedophiles or people who engage in animal torture…

    In one very famous sci-fi book I am reading now there was a case of paedophialia, it goes by without a bat of the eyelids.

    Movies and books can influence people more than games.

    Games are the current scapegoats.

  • #37404

    omen
    Participant

    In one very famous sci-fi book I am reading now there was a case of paedophialia, it goes by without a bat of the eyelid[/quote:0549eed74a]
    Was this case in the first person? Were you reading about actually performing the act and how you, the character in first person, actually felt about doing it? And was it graphically in your face? And if so…did you enjoy it? Would you read it again?

    As for books influencing more than games…thats completely wrong. Why? Because games are mass market where-as books aren’t these days.

  • #37406

    boadle
    Participant

    I’ve had this debate so many times over the last few days, and it keeps turning into a string of analogies, or a philosophical ‘logical extreme’ rally. Personally, the thing that gets my goat is the millions of forum-ites desperately defending Rockstars right to ‘Creative Expression’, when you just know that their suits were gleefully rubbing their hands together at the Manhunt 2 Kickoff Presentation, dollar signs in their eyes, when they thought how much controversy and therefore sales this game would create.

    You went too far Rockstar, and you blew it.

  • #37408

    Squash-n-Stretch
    Participant

    Yup, was in the Leeds office for a few months before deciding the Rockstar life wasn’t for me.[/quote:089d3cfe30]

    No shit, you decided that you didn’t want to work for a company who went and created a mediocre sequel to a mediocre game which was very influential in the death of a young man out of what seems to be sheer pig stubborness, and threw acts of rape in the sequel just for the sake of it?

    Why? :P

    (I will still be buying GTA IV, yes, I am a filthy hypocrite.)

  • #37416

    eDen
    Participant

    No shit, you decided that you didn’t want to work for a company who went and created a mediocre sequel to a mediocre game which was very influential in the death of a young man out of what seems to be sheer pig stubborness, and threw acts of rape in the sequel just for the sake of it?

    Why? :P
    [/quote:1ea9a174ee]

    The kid that was killed was 14, and the killer was 17. The 14 year old was the person that owned the game because someone had bought it for him. This makes it harder to blame Rockstar because of the whole argument that parents should monitor what content in the media their children are exposed to (which of course is correct)

    I was 19 when Manhunt game out and I bought it for the ps2. The game had its flaws, but I immensely enjoyed this game for what it was. It was ultra violent and encouraged you to pick off the NPC’s in the game, but it did so through a snuff film director who had drugged you and placed you in the situation where you had to kill these people in order to progress towards your eventual escape. This led to great characters placed in the game by the director and an insane level of suspense.

    The problem I have with the new one is that this whole snuff film plot seems to be omitted entirely. So it’s basically just violence. So it probably is too far for rockstar to go. But I wont decide until I see the game because it could be great and very well done.

  • #37422

    omen
    Participant

    No shit, you decided that you didn’t want to work for a company who went and created a mediocre sequel to a mediocre game which was very influential in the death of a young man out of what seems to be sheer pig stubborness, and threw acts of rape in the sequel just for the sake of it?

    Why? :P[/quote:83247e509f]

    It was more of a question of lots of money and lots of overtime or less money and a life…easy decision for me really.
    Nothing to do with morality issues really…Although looking back now, I’m happier with decision

  • #37441

    Red
    Participant

    The problem is that there is noone who can be trusted to actually draw the line – every decision to ban is a subjective one. The only solution is to allow a free market to dictate whether or not there is a demand for such a game and to avoid sensationalising it to the point that people buy it because they have heard of it and want to be able to claim they have played it rather than any interest in the actual game. So….everyone does not agree the line should exist :)

    Dave[/quote:42eb620bca]

    That’s really well stated. (well except that there may be other solutions apart from allowing the free market dictate)

    You are assuming the people know what is best for themselves, and that parents can and should police their children. It is arguable that some parents would rather the state take that responsibility. (and yes the government rating system is doing just that…)

    now it is possible that people are the best to judge what is good for themselves… so can i please extend your argument to societies.

    And that our society judging what is best for itself has banned this game. I don’t hear the rallying cries of hundreds of devout Rockstar fans calling for the decisions to be overturned. So I think the censor board may have gotten it right this time.

    Quote:
    In one very famous sci-fi book I am reading now there was a case of paedophialia, it goes by without a bat of the eyelid

    Was this case in the first person?
    [/quote:42eb620bca]

    I think he was suggesting a top down rts style game :P

    But I wont decide until I see the game because it could be great and very well done.
    [/quote:42eb620bca]
    at this point this seems unlikely as R* seems to have shelved the project.

    and not seeing the project in question does rather limit our ability to judge the censor’s decision….

  • #37447

    eDen
    Participant

    new release date of 31st december 2007. think they are taking stuff out?

  • #37454

    John Kelly
    Participant

    I seem to remember there was a serious attempt to ban foreign music in this country back in the 1920-30’s, but I’m a bit fuzzy on that. Anyone know anything about it?

  • #37460

    boadle
    Participant

    I was reading about this recently. Apparently, in the 1930’s RTE imposed a religiously-inspired ‘ban on Jazz’, but it effectively took in most forms of foreign music. It wasn’t a state-imposed ban, but since RTE were the only broadcaster, it might has well have been. The ban drove much of its listenership to the BBC and Irish pirate radio.

    Listen to an RTE documentary about this short-lived ban here.

  • #37471

    John Kelly
    Participant

    hum…sounds different from what i heard about. but as i said im fuzzy on my facts. I was under the impression it was an attempt by the censor’s office but it was rejected by the government…could be wrong though

    Cool link btw

  • #38175

    dillon
    Participant

    So the new Manhunt 2 has an official release date, for the US at least:

    http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=170822

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