Split thread re: Letterkenny IT

…Ok, I think its time I ring Simon or Thomas over at LYIT, and verify that they have SEEN a fully-functioning dev tool kit. And that its installed, on the workstations that the propposed post-grad course will be using.

Anything short of that, and, well…its back to the drawing board…

1 1/2 years of empty promises? Really???

Contact Tony about it…

The Instinct Engine and accompanying tool suite sounds cool, hope everything goes well and the October milestone doesn’t kill all the Torcians ™

Idora,

So could you please clarify something for me. Is the Torc Dev Suite installed, ready to rock-and-roll on the LYIT computer suite?

If not, what date do you expect to unleash your tools on the world? you mentioned a project milestone of October. Is that October 01st, or October 31st? And does that mean your sending out CD’s to the colleges involved on November 01st? I don’t mean to give you a hard time on dates, its just I don’t want to enroll in a course that won’t feature your tools from Day 01.

Also, I have experience with the Reality Engine (the engine that was replaced Instinct on the ICE course) and yup, I found it “temperamental” to say the least.

But in its defence, I would say that it is VERY easy to use, provides great online documentation & tutorials, has a MAGNIFICENT GUI, 3D Navigation is instinctive (no pun intended), and getting your models from 3DS Max into your map/level takes about 3 clicks.

So Tony, have you (or the other Torc lads) had a chance to give Reality a spin? Will your editors leave it for dust?

Any info at all is appreciated…

So could you please clarify something for me. Is the Torc Dev Suite installed, ready to rock-and-roll on the LYIT computer suite?

If not, what date do you expect to unleash your tools on the world? you mentioned a project milestone of October. Is that October 01st, or October 31st? And does that mean your sending out CD’s to the colleges involved on November 01st? I don’t mean to give you a hard time on dates, its just I don’t want to enroll in a course that won’t feature your tools from Day 01.[/quote:6204f2ecd4]Jediboy, I appreciate where you are coming from in wanting to ensure you enrol on the best possible course, etc. so out of respect for that I’ll answer some of your queries… to a point.

Firstly, if you have queries about the content/tools on your course, talk to Simon and/or Thomas in LYIT.

No course in game dev is or should be built around a single tool set, (and particularly the LYIT course which is teaching programming – not the A to Z of the Instinct Engine or any other) so therefore your concern over whether the engine and tools are installed from day one is unfounded, and if you’ll forgive me being frank, irrelevent

As I suggested, talk to the LYIT about when/how they plan on using the engine…

Also, I have experience with the Reality Engine (the engine that was replaced Instinct on the ICE course) and yup, I found it “temperamental” to say the least.

But in its defence, I would say that it is VERY easy to use, provides great online documentation & tutorials, has a MAGNIFICENT GUI, 3D Navigation is instinctive (no pun intended), and getting your models from 3DS Max into your map/level takes about 3 clicks.

So Tony, have you (or the other Torc lads) had a chance to give Reality a spin? Will your editors leave it for dust?[/quote:6204f2ecd4]the short answer is ‘yes’ we have – programmers, level designers, audio personnel and production staff. Our feelings on this or any other competitor’s engine are our own and not for public debate and consumption – that’s just plain unprofessional, in my opinion. The Reality Engine, like any other app, has its strengths and weaknesses, as does our own. (However, if you want my personal opinion (while not wearing either a Torc or IGDA hat) on this or other matters, catch me over a pint sometime)

As said previously, the engine and tools will be out in the world from October on and tutors/students/developers can judge its merits for themselves and compare them to our competitors to their hearts content

Two last points:
– firstly, early next year IGDA Ireland will be accrediting the game dev courses both north and south of the border to maintain quality control over the recent proliferation of games-related courses and to ensure that potential students are fully aware of the quality of the tutelage they can expect (and how the industry rates that tutelage). In my personal opinion (not Torc’s, not the IGDA’s) the LYIT courses, regardless of whether they go with Instinct Engine or not, are some of the best in the country currently being offered for aspiring games engineers

– secondly, I’d like to thank the folks from Phooka who contacted me tonight to apologise and distance themselves from the earlier post from fishingsauce. Now that’s what I call professionalism…

Nicely put Tony. Several very good points there.

Idora,

Thanks for the info. Didn’t mean to draw you into a “tit-for-tat” session with respect to your competitors products.

I’ll take you up on your offer of a chat over a few pints. See you at a shindig sometime.

B.

Well, a lively discussion, at least, I like that :-)

Idora :

No course in game dev is or should be built around a single tool set, (and particularly the LYIT course which is teaching programming – not the A to Z of the Instinct Engine or any other) so therefore your concern over whether the engine and tools are installed from day one is unfounded, and if you’ll forgive me being frank, irrelevent [/quote:04f52b3139]

I am mighty glad to hear a professional say it, because I sometimes get tired of repeating the same thing, to no effect it seems.

Learning game programming isn’t about learning how to use a given game engine. I think, quite possibly, this is a very bad way of learning things, although maybe in a “necessary evil” sort of way. After all these years of reading game programming books, my favourites (and STILL useful) are still the ones that didn’t use any sort of specific engine, ubt rather focused on doing it yourself, to understand how it’s done (if that makes sense).

Yes, it’s nice to have an engine that does it all for me, when I am a programmer. But when I am learning, I’d rather hear about Wu pixels and about Bresenham, than being taught the syntax of the lineAntialiased() function in some API…
it’s the same thing that makes me criticise any course that “teaches” you how to use Visual Basic as a serious programming language: it’s a mighty cool (read, prouctive) developer tool, and very rewarding if you are a noob, but teaching isn’t about having it easy, it’s about freaking learning, no?

Anyway, that’s a problem about the education system in general (and it’s turning slightly similar in France, too), and not specifically with LYIT, so forgive me for ranting.

As long as Torc (or any other industry professionals) are involved in the LYIT course, I’d say it can’t go too wrong.

And to answer jediboy above, even if all I get is some “made the previous evening” courses as I have had to suffer before; even if I know most of it (which I fear will happen anyway) from the years I have spent reading books and discussing things on GameDev, I still want to apply to the course, because at last I have a chance, in this God forsaken place, to be in an environment where people are actually interested in what I am trying to do (it would have been nice to have some professionals around 5 years ago when I started my stupid MSc, I can tell you).

Philippe

better to release the tools and the engine when their down instead of releasing the lot and issuing 20 patches, and appending the documentation. One major corporation jumps to mind when discussing patches and “buggy” software..

I have to ask peter_b, your sig, it’s SanAndreas WCTR chat show, isn’t it? :wink:

I have to ask peter_b, your sig, it’s SanAndreas WCTR chat show, isn’t it? :wink:[/quote:0ec80e2c80]

nop..
its stewie from family guy.. ;)

:lol: yes, it was the only other thing I could think of.

As for on topic stuff, I agree that bad docs is REALLY hard. Especially if you are doing a course with the damn engine.
The Torque engine has a great community, for example, but it lack of extensive documentation really makes it hard to use as a teaching tool (well, at least last time I checked the docs was really limited).

I am really eager to see that Instinct engine, if only to compare the reality to what the lecturers told me about it (Simon McCabe amongst others).

I read this a few days ago and have been trying to get some info from a few legal friends of mine, who i can’t get hold of at them moment. I think i can see that there was an anonymous post from someone called finishingsauce, but what i didnt see is who he works for and that brings up the libel case against Idora about mentioning the company Phooka. My reasoning brings me to believe that Phooka have a libel case because you was unprofessional by mentioning their name because of an anonymous persons post, even if someone from the company called Phooka rang and apologised to you, you have damaged thier reputation because of an anonymous post, now if thats not unprofessional i don’t know what is.

Allanon

PS. Phooka should see thier solicitors to check if they have a libel case against both the game developers ie and also against Torc. I think you have blatently tried to damage an upcoming games company that is located in Ireland, and i would suggest that you shoudl step down from your position on the IGDA.

PPS talking about being a professional in the games industry, can i ask how many AAA games you have worked on?

I read this a few days ago and have been trying to get some info from a few legal friends of mine, who i can’t get hold of at them moment.[/quote:4729f66b1b]
Soooo….?

I think i can see that there was an anonymous post from someone called finishingsauce[/quote:4729f66b1b]
While you may not know who he is and what his relationship to Phooka is, the relevant people do.

My reasoning brings me to believe that Phooka have a libel case because you was unprofessional by mentioning their name because of an anonymous persons post[/quote:4729f66b1b]
Idora, as mentioned above, has already spoken to a number of the people in Phooka regarding this ‘anonymous’ post.

Phooka should see thier solicitors to check if they have a libel case against both the game developers ie and also against Torc.[/quote:4729f66b1b]
Gd.ie is a public forum and those who post are responsible for their own posts and opinions.

I think you have blatently tried to damage an upcoming games company that is located in Ireland[/quote:4729f66b1b]
If thats what you think, maybe you should have waited for some of those legal friends to get back to you.

PPS talking about being a professional in the games industry, can i ask how many AAA games you have worked on?[/quote:4729f66b1b]
Is this how you rate professionalism?

Please, if you are going to post regarding an issue, please try and be informed regarding the background to the events leading up to the issue and the current situation. Otherwise, you contribute nothing to the thread.

Dave

ah lads..
This place has really turned into a political ring.

Talk of bringing slander cases against people(really get off the legal horse). This is a free forum, you write what you like as long its not profane. You make up your own mind on whatever you read. If you dont like what you read, dont read it..

Its things like this will mess up this site.

As for the rubbish of stepping down from an IGDA position. Who in the first place got the whole IGDA up and running in Ireland???

Mmmmm….politics :)

I would appreciate it if Phooka as a company could be distanced from this thread. If anyone feels that they should talk to Phooka regarding this thread or related issues then please PM me and dont post publicly on the forum.

The comments made were a personal opinion and in no way reflect Phooka’s opinions as a company, if we had a grievance this wouldnt be the forum to air them.

However I do believe individuals have the right to voice their OWN personal views and grievances in a public forum which should be open for debate.

h iall,

thanks Mal for that. I’ve missed the last few days here as I am in the middle of moving jobs and house etc. but I will go back and read them more carefully once I am settled. I’ve posted re IGDA voting in that thread.

Can I say as a moderator and person who also spends far too much time on these boards and IGDA Ireland stuff the idea here is that you network, chat, and express opinions but that you do not slander or insult fellow board members. As Skyclad has indicated we have to date in 2 and a half years had very few instances where we felt we needed to edit any posts for content. We would like to keep it that way.

You are free to express opinions but if people wish to use these boards to personally name other people and to slander them in any way we will have no choice but to edit your posts. Please do not make us do it – it is not in the spirit of the boards.

Also you might want to note that gd.ie is run by volunteers for the wider community – three of the four moderators on these forums – myself, Ronny and Dave – are not working in game development companies but we would like to see the community grow.

The website is separate from the IGDA committee which is populated by industry folk although at the moment I am an academic member of the committee. That will probably be for a finite period until formal elections are held. However, I do hope I can maintain gd.ie even after my representation on the IGDA committee ends. They are separate entities and you don’t need formal membership or to be working in the games industry to participate here on gd.ie. However we would ask you to use the boards to air general greviances rather than specific problems with specific people or companies.

Aphra.

I would appreciate it if Phooka as a company could be distanced from this thread. If anyone feels that they should talk to Phooka regarding this thread or related issues then please PM me and dont post publicly on the forum.

The comments made were a personal opinion and in no way reflect Phooka’s opinions as a company, if we had a grievance this wouldnt be the forum to air them.

However I do believe individuals have the right to voice their OWN personal views and grievances in a public forum which should be open for debate.[/quote:4d985b9c2f]

so was the anonymous poster a pooka member?

whos anonymous it was finishing sauce, im sure their pm’s work also, if you want to ask.

People who join a forum, make one post and that post is in a contentious thread have no credibility in my book.

As for back slapping clique, eh? This is a very open and helpful forum and manages not to feature spam, flames or muppetry. Check out all the posts asking for advice or help and the support we try to encourage.

Ofcourse we are going to support members who has proven credibility and have selflessly gone out of their way to help get the Irish dev scenes’ act together

I would recommend that you actually contribute rather than simply join and make posts that are have the sole intention of attack. If you have a beef thats fine, but be constructive and perhaps take it to a more private setting.

so…to recap…er welcome….but get a clue lads.

no-one (not me or anyone as far as I can see) are advocating an end to free speech… But it’s only free in the sense that the forum guidelines are adhered to and the law isn’t broken. None of us get to say what we like, how we like regardless of the consequences. For many of us on these forums this industry is our livelihoods, and while you get to voice all the opinions you like about our products – you don’t get to slag us off unchallenged

Posting some of the story/facts is misrepresentation, and in that case that it adversely reflects on a company/someone is… well, slander/libel, no??

And personally I DO think that posts that contravene the law and /or forum guidleines should get edited/deleted

*brings out a sharp stick, opens a bag of marshmallows*
Are those flames I see before me?

Anyway, I wish this sort of thing wouldn’t happen in a thread regarding the MSc. I want so much to see happen.
As I said somewhere else previously, who cares if we can’t use an engine! That’s not what game programming is about, is it? Well, maybe the industry, but seriously, I’d rather be taught how to do an engine from scratch, than be given the keys to a shiny new one…

Philippe

What i meant is in my post is that an individual aka finishingsauce posted a reply and a (unprofessional member of the forums mentioned a companies name in a reply to that post) member of the IGDA has damaged a company name by mentioning that company. If i was a member of the said company i would be spitting fireballs to be honest because of Tony Kelly of Torc (aka idora) associating the post with a company, when it was an individual that posted the comment. When Torc have a released game made by a licensee or release a game themselves (not including the AMD demo), it will be then that i will associate members of Torc as professionals ( having the gift of the gab and a business mind does not make one a professional unless they have a final product, which can be played tested etc).

Allanoon

Can people please make sure that any grievances they have with specific people or companies is dealt with by pm or email.

Dave and Aphra.

what’s happening here? I thought the thread was locked.

What does that mean, a locked thread? Never heard that term before?

> What does that mean, a locked thread? Never heard that term before?

I could have sworn ( maybe it was the fumes from an overheating laptop fan ) that one of the admins had locked or closed the thread, so no more replies could be made to it by regular forum members.

Maybe your right, I have no idea. I think they may have dumped all the posts relating to the “Stand-Off” relating to :

Company X – Engine,
Company Y – Supposed Use of the Engine,

and

Institute Z – Apparent Contract for Engine X.

Anyway, how goes Belfast? Are you still on the Midas programme? I’m hearing all kinds of reports coming out of that programme. I could mention what I heard, but i suppose IGDA Stormtrooopers would arrive at my door, and I’d be mind-probed, and locked up for 10-20…

well spotted Mal – we were going to lock this thread but then decided not to. Jediboy – I think you will find all the mails intact if you browse back – we decided just to remind people to make their comments less personal.

Aphra.

Ps as for Belfast – best avoided yesterday and the night before!

My one and only post on this topic…

To only consider somebody a ‘professional’ after they have released a game is ridiculous. Most of the people on these boards haven’t done it. I’d guess maybe 5% – 10% have? Yet I would still consider quiet a few people here professionals in the industry.

My reply to that is Torc Interactive was formed in 1999, and they still haven’t produced a tool set or an evaluation kit. I mean most games companies would have released several games in that time. I’m sure most of the professionals on the boards haven.t been working on a game for 6 years and still haven’t released a game and i think that they don’t plan to.

ok you guys. I have had enough of this. You have expressed your opinion and been asked to stop naming people and companies specifically but you continue to persist.

I am now locking this thread so no you won’t be able to continue this topic. If you try to start it elsewhere we will edit and delete your posts. Your posts are not in the spirit of these forums and we would be well pleased if you took them elsewhere. If you want to discuss this feel free to PM me or come to a shindig but this discussion is now closed.

Aphra.