Short Gaming Courses

most of the courses Robbie refers to are in our list of courses on this website.

Many on these boards have done more general undergraduate courses (diplomas, certificates, degrees) etc. and then when they are clearer about their own strengths and interests gone on to do a postgraduate course in a particular area or gone into a company at entry level and worked up.

There is quite a lot of choice now and it is increasing all the time – both in the south and the north.

Aphra.

me again anyway i have been reading back on previous posts and i can see why you made this post.

completely agree with Skyclad on this (although I can also see the merits on the Learn C++ in 21 Days books, published by Sams that Omen recommended)

For the record, I can’t see myself EVER hiring a programmer whose sole programming experience is based on 1 or 2 year HNC/D course… Yeah, you can have 2 or 3 portfolio games – but any gobshite can cut ‘n’ paste or type in code from a book/handout… that does not a software engineer make[/quote:4800f4518c]

One comment i will make is that Idora where have you been the past 5 years, do you even know that there are individuals and groups of ppl that make games themselves and have no formal qualifications. I’m talking about the individal ppl that make up the mod teams that over the last few years games companies have been hiring does that make them unprofessional because they have hired ppl without formal qualifications?

Why don’t we start a thread with everyones qualificaions to see how many actually have a 3-4 years gaming course qualifications to see if Idora is right in that no games company should hire anyone without them? Showing who on these forums is a professional in Idoras eyes by having done a 3-4 year course, starting with the admins.

Why don’t we start a thread with everyones qualificaions to see how many actually have a 3-4 years gaming course qualifications to see if Idora is right in that no games company should hire anyone without them? Showing who on these forums is a professional in Idoras eyes by having done a 3-4 year course, starting with the admins.[/quote:41aa623ed4]

Read idoras post carefully he never said 3-4 years “games course”. i think you’ll find the majority of people dont have a games degree, but they do have a degree in some subject(comp eng,comp sci, physics,elec eng etc). Personally if i was hiring, the person would have to have 3-4 years programming in a college, unless they were paritcularly good and could prove that they know the stuff and not cut and paste as mentioned before. Coz like he said any muppet cand c&p.

I’m sure the people that authorise courses are slightly tougher than ‘student must know how to cut’n’paste’ when deciding what courses will be approved and what will not.

I hope so.

You’d be suprised. In my year, I reckon lots of people passed due to c’n’p.
However it’d probably also be true to say most of them don’t work in computing anymore.

I think its wrong to tar all students with that brush though.

I know alot of people who didnt put the work in on courses i’ve been on in the past and they failed miserably.

Isn’t it the same no matter what the course…

Some people will work their asses off and get a good solid qualification, some will do the barest minimum the get the qualification and some won’t do much work at all and fail. My point is that c’n’p will do enough for you to get the qualification in many courses today. However, I think ( with my minimal understanding ) that games courses are technical enough that you should need to work for your qualification and as such should pick up at least a decent understanding of the work.

Well i know that if you slacked at all on the games course i was on you wouldn’t have passed at all, you probably wouldve been kicked out.

Essentially that’s my hope. Gaming is hard enough, IMO, that all those noobs just shouldn’t be able to cut the mustard anymore.
My worries is on the Academic side, now: my experience is that what they really want is people to pass their exam and get their diplomas. Not actualyl be good at their stuff. Big fucking difference.

And the way they see things, let’s not forget, is that Game Dev is an industry.
If they did it out of academic love, they wouldn’t have thought I was some sort of clown 9 years ago when I was doing my first year project and talking about how game programming could really be used to teach better. Now it’s standard practice (in the course I was doing, a Telecom and Network course) to ask the students to do a game as their first year project. Oh, the irony.

Anyway, it’s all about the bling bling, eh?

Philippe

Coming from an art background, it is a constant disappointment to me to see utter wasters graduate with the same qualifications as talented hard workers from art/animation courses. In my opinion, this is largely due to team based projects in the final year that carry most of the marks. It is possible to scrape through personal assignments and contribute little to the team project leaving the others with more work to do, I’ve seen it happen. Now I think that learning the possible pitfalls of working in a team in college is a good thing, tutors will always argue “you don’t get to choose who you work with, why should this be any different?”. Of course those wasters you may be working with will never get jobs in the industry, so no fears of bumping into them in future employment there then.

Of course those wasters you may be working with will never get jobs in the industry, so no fears of bumping into them in future employment there then.[/quote:f934334362]

good point pete, i think the people that do coast through and “cut’n’paste” are screwed in the long run because

(a) they’re usually too simple to have any sort of common sense
or
(b) god forbid they get the job and after a few months the employer realises this person doesn’t know what their doing and the sacks them.

Yup, team projects in college are a nightmare. They may compare it to the workplace, but at least people can be fired for incompetence in the workplace. No such joy in uni. Write a report saying people weren’t pulling their weight and there is the fear that the lecturer will deem it that the team couldn’t / wouldn’t work together and they lose marks for team work. Ignore it in the report and the wasters get the grades based on your work.
I was lucky enough to be given free reign on a team based report once and slated our team working ability. Felt so good.

Pete : don’t make the mistake of thinking that this is a problem due to the team project. I still am convinced that team projects are a very valuable experience. It’s just the way it’s organised most of the time that kind of sucks. Back home, every practicals we had were “Buddy team” based (a pair of students). In my case, my friend was as good at electronics as I was good at programming, so he helped me with the elec, n I later helped him in prog.

Obviously, if you don’t even know the name of your team mates like I have seen it happen here…
what you Irish people need is “bizutage”. Best experience ever. It creates “team spirit” as management moghuls would say.

Anyway, I am glad to see I am not the only one being annoyed that complete wasters get the same qualifications than hard workers. Skyclad was starting to make me think I was some sort of aberration (on that 110% b00b thread) for thinking like that :?

Then again, I am a waster… I just happen to be good, too, that’s all :lol:

Philippe

in my experience there’s two types of people you definitely don’t want on your team

Know it alls who say “oh, I can do the most of this tonight” and “sure leave that part to me I know more about it”. They hardly ever deliver on what they say they can do.

and

The ones who show up at meetings every few weeks and ruin everyones hard work by saying “oh, don’t know if I like that now” or “we need more….”

i’ve encountered both these types of people, makes you want to band your head against a wall at the moronity of it all.

I still remember my first year team project : I was on my own, as nobody could follow what I was trying to do, and I couldn’t be bothered doing something else (I was doing an ASCII paint program, if u must know, with mouse and colours). The next year, I took refugees (my best mates) and they essentially did all the boring stuff for me (like presentations) while I did all the programming. Absolutely loved it. Like I said above, there was no bullshit between us: I was good at programming, so I did what I was good at without expecting them to do much, while I knew they’d help me out in other projects where I was lamentable.

To be fair, I had the same thing happening here in LK: I helped so much people with their coding that when I asked if maybe somebody could help me with a System Design presentation, I got 5 people offering up their notes, and the next time around (still for that stupid subject), a team essentially offered me a free ride (I just did the talking, which they all hate around here).

Ah the good ol’ days :roll:

F.A.O. – Idora.

It seems to be that your coming under continual assault due to some of the points that your raise.

I think that this is because your a mult-faceted individual. No, i don’t mean your two-faced, what I mean is that you speak from a variety of perspectives; A member of Torc, A Member of the IGDA, A Gamer, etc.

Basically, your wearing lots of (to use a linux-ism) ‘hats’. So I would suggest that next time your firing shots across someone bow, that you point out what ‘hat’ or perspective your speaking from.

Does that make sense?

Hi Tony,
It might clear-up this thread if you outline your own qualifications and direct games experience to let everyone see where you are coming from on this topic. Maybe if others did the same we would see that there is a real diverse variety of experiences and qualifications among the employers, developers, researchers, producers etc…involved in the games industry in Ireland and no matter what your experience or qualifications, with hard work in the area in which you choose to work within the games arena, it is possible to make the move, provided you can do what you are hired to do and prove yourself in the process.

Coming from an educational background myself, it is very easy to separate the wheat from the chaff, and we all know that ‘gob*****s’ stand out. They may as well be wearing a sign around their necks saying ‘I know nothing’. Detecting them comes with years of experience in dealing with them – although you will always get the ones that manage to fool people by ‘delegating’, but at the end of the day, I always find that given enough rope, down the line, they hang themselves. Good workers/students/managers/programmers/artists etc….always shine and do well.

Idora
It is worth noting that colleges are funded based on how many places they fill on their courses – not how fit their graduates are for employment, or how employable they are.[/quote:761e96f7d6]
Well, thanks for reassuring me. So it’s not just me being completely cynical, then.
Although IMO, the problem comes as much from the industry putting pressure on schools as from the schools themselves.
If only the industry could use the schools more for their research potential than as hatcheries for future employers :roll:

Philippe

oh come off it lads, what tony does, what his qualifications are etc are quiet frankly no one’s business but his own, the grand inquisition ended centuries ago. He puts forwards his opinions as does everyone else yet i haven’t seen anyone else asked for a detailed CV to be posted. No point in going completely off topic in every thread because of personal vendetta’s.

Ps great time to start posting eh, been hovering on these boards for 6months or so now and usually enjoy just reading the posts.

Pss I from Dublin and don’t know idora or anyone else here.

oh come off it lads, what tony does, what his qualifications are etc are quiet frankly no one’s business but his own, the grand inquisition ended centuries ago. He puts forwards his opinions as does everyone else yet i haven’t seen anyone else asked for a detailed CV to be posted. No point in going completely off topic in every thread because of personal vendetta’s. [/quote:c1a4991257]

Agreed.
Plus these vendetta make for boring reading as the same points keep popping up in various threads.

ah don’t mind me just seen it in a few too many threads recently.

The only point being made here is that at present we do not have a lot of people who are currently working in the industry (myself included) that have the relevant games qualifications or experience and most are self-taught. This is primarily because games-related courses themselves are still in their infancy – therefore, to go back to the original thread topic and debate about courses and qualifications:

As Tony states “discussions with publishers (approx. 20 of them) have shown that they think indie developers should only be looking to hire industry experienced vets, given the current dev and publishing climate. So how does that affect prospective students on games dev courses, regardless of duration or qualification??” So how does this affect prospective students? As a result of this it looks like the vicious circle situation arises again – as a graduate, how do you get the experience with out the break, in order to specialise in the games industry, and vice-versa! I think a good thread to continue with would be how the current veterans in the Games industry in Ireland managed to get their breaks before Computer Games Courses emerged – I think it would be good advice that the large graduate base on this forum, looking to get into the industry, could learn from.

In the current climate I think the only realistic thing to do is what I did. Leave Ireland. Ireland isn’t ready for an influx of graduates yet but the UK is. Give it a few years and maybe it’ll be different but you’re going to have a hell of a hard time trying to find a job in Ireland with no industry experience.

I agree with Omen. There is so much happening in England & Scotland than here. Plus, from talking with recruiters on a regular basis, these established companies realise that their 30/40-somethings who started the company aren’t gonna be at the helm for much longer, and need fresh blood coming into the ranks.

This could be attributed to the fact that they have a budget/cashflow that can support 6 junior programmers @ 20k [sterling] a go, every year…

But the whole idea of growing both the educational and industrial sectors is that graduates do not leave Ireland. Do you think there are not enough companies here, was the work not what you were looking for, or was the salary better? What would have made you stay in ireland as a graduate who wanted to work in the Games industry?

Do you think there are not enough companies here[/quote:dba8fcfeb2]
18 months ago, there definitelly weren’t. Now, there may be, but I don’t think they are established enough to take the perceived risk ( as publishers see it ) of employing graduates.

was the work not what you were looking for[/quote:dba8fcfeb2]
No, it was/is mainly java mobile stuff. Want to work on consoles.

or was the salary better?[/quote:dba8fcfeb2]
Yes, its better in the uk, the companies are more established so have more to spend and as a result I’m probably on more than I would have gotten in Ireland

What would have made you stay in ireland as a graduate who wanted to work in the Games industry?[/quote:dba8fcfeb2]
Some companies that were established and who offered me a job. Offering me a job would have sold it to me, i’m not picky. 18 months ago there basically wasn’t anyone publicly looking in Ireland, now there may be, but i’d rather gain more experience where I am before I think about returning.

I would stay in Ireland if:

A games company had been involved in my Undergraduate (BSc. LYIT)and/or Post-Grad (MSc. UU Magee) studies, in so far as they would have provided me with a research topic, I carry out the research, get my degree/masters and then make a smooth transition onto their R&D team upon completing my studies. Torc & Enterprise Ireland are doing this (starting to, or have been, not sure.)

I found that :

1). There was not enough Games Companies in Ireland.

2). Those that did exist did not want to hire [local] graduates. Either because their budget wouldn’t allow it, and they were hoping to catch a seasoned pro.

3). Money was not that important to me. I love making games, and don’t care about a 40-50-60 hour working week. I found the salaries on offer in England to be FAR better than Ireland. Starting salary for a Grad Games (by that I mean a Comp Sci Degree Grad with a 3D Demo) to be in the range of 18-20k (sterling), with 2 annual performance/salary reviews. Shares options, dental, health care etc. Cost of living in England/Scotland is ALOT cheaper than Ireland (Rip-Off-Republic anyway, our Northern Cousins still get value for money).

4). The HR/Recruitment people wouldn’t take a chance. I offered time and time again to come into a company and work, pro-bono, for 2-4 weeks (depending on how much savings I had knocked up from various other jobs). No Irish companies would take a chance. English recruiters tend to be more open to these kind of offers.

5). Ireland has no sunshine. It is cold. It rains. All the time. I hate the rain. I like sunshine. I know England/Scotland isn’t much better, (indeed scotland can be arctic) but its a start. Next stop is California.

However in the long scheme of things, I foresee myself doing 3-5 in England/Scotland, 5-7 in California, and then return home and set up a games company in Ireland (or at least a European Branch of the company I happen to working for at the time.)

Obviously, by then global warming will have worked a treat, and Ireland will have all-year-round temperatures of 22 Celcius. Even on Christmas.

Ahhh, CFC’s, God Bless their wee hearts….;)

LMAO :P
You guys must think I am a fool for coming up here, when you know Ubisoft have their French offices in my home town and a friend of mine work there for the last four years. But soon… soon. I don’t like the industry, what I like is research, and academia, and young student gir*coughcough*
:roll:

Frenchman,

Whats the weather like in your town? Any beaches nearby? Whats the surf like? Whats the rent like? Ask your ‘cheese-eatin-surrender-monkey’ friends what the starting salary is like with Ubi-Soft.

I don’t mind learning to speak FROG if it’s warm and sunny and the pay is good…

Next stop is California.

However in the long scheme of things, I foresee myself doing 3-5 in England/Scotland, 5-7 in California, and then return home and set up a games company in Ireland (or at least a European Branch of the company I happen to working for at the time.)
[/quote:78c265e452]

To be honest you won’t find a lot of game work in California. Well depending on when you come out. If you come out now you could probably find plenty, but the trend seems to be moving away from California and migrating to places such as Washington state which is not too much different from your lovely island. Personally I have been in sunny Hawaii for the last 3 years and I am damn tired of the sun. Granted I am moving to Arizona which isn’t much better, but hey at least there I am only 2 hours from snow in the winter. Also in Cali, some… I say again SOME, of the employers see you living in Cali as a part of your benefits package, and try to take a nice bit chunk out of your beny package.

Anyway this is a long winded post to say nothing more than, you might want to take a look around the country before setting your heart on Cali. There are a lot of very good companies to work for in places other than that stuck up, egotistical state. And if you don’t like the arrogance some Americans put off, you definately won’t like Cali. I lived there for almost 2 years. Great place as long as you find good people. Just look around, you can usually find a better job elsewhere. And of course this is from a student hearing stories second hand, with no real experience of my own to speak of in the industry.

i agree the opportunities do seem to be in the uk\scotland at the moment. And starting salaries are pretty decent. My plan is to do a few years in my current job and possibly move back to ireland when the irish games industry is doing better than present. Also hopefully ill have a few years experience so i can contribute to the company in a better way.

I think as omen said the main problems is irish companies cant take on the grads because they are trying to get their first few games published and the publishers are putting pressure on the company to hire seasoned pros not newbie. Guess uk\scotland doesnt have this problem because the majority of the companies have many titles under there belt so they can invest time and money in breeding new talent. Just look at the cody recruitment ads in edge lately. “something about joining the new breed”.

Yeah Codemasters did have a policy of hiring graduates. They gave me my first job in the industry, for which I am very grateful.

Unfortunately this has dwindled of late, especially since the rounds of redundancies and ongoing resignations. The vast majority of positions on offer are for senior or lead positions.

I do agree that larger developers are definitely a better bet for grads, smaller companies might be able to give some work experience, but they need everyone on the team to hit the ground running.

just to contradict what jediboy said bout irish companies not hiring graduates, i finished by degree in NUIG this year and then did the internship at starcave and have now been hired there full time. so at least one irish company is willing to bring on local talent.

also there were two other graduates hired along with an experienced programmer (not experienced in games) and an experienced modder who does some class level design.

so if your a graduate looking to get hired in ireland there chances available.

Codemasters was one for hiring graduates alright – but I didn’t like their recruitment method at all, i have to say. I’m very greateful for the interview that they gave me: it showed me the difference between a place i could enjoy working in (the job that i took), & somewhere that i’m happy to avoid like the plague.

but to return to Jediboy’s post, i’ve got a few of yours points to address if i may,

1) no there’s not too many games companies to choose from around here, but then the industry is young, & it is growing strong. When i originally was looking around, some 7 years ago now, there certainly wasn’t much, if any, opportunity. Things though, they are a changin’.

2) maybe in the past, certainly, but in StarCave here, of the internship that started a couple of months ago, 5 have now been given full time employment. & they are indeed graduates.

3) okay, money isn’t generally too important to us when trying to break into doing something we love for a living. But the wage difference is starting to even out between the two countries. & then if money isn’t too important to you, why move country to get a few extra quid?

& Ireland is more expensive? I’d been told this repeatedly by many sources in the past up until very recently, but I’ve just returned to Ireland after 6 years working in England, & I’ve got news for you: it’s all lies & propoganda! don’t believe the hype; some things are more expensive, & some things are cheaper.
The change from sterling to the euro may confuse the issue when you see a higher number on the price tag over here, but on the whole, i’ve actually found that my money lasts longer.

I know that rents in Dublin are extortionate, but Dublin is the capital city. Have you looked at rents in London?

4) please refere to point 2

5) Regarding the weather, I’ve just moved to Galway, where i was warned about it raining continously. Which dispite a couple of mild showers, i’ve not noticed to any great extent. What i have seen is a lot more sunny skies than i remembered from before i left. I know winter is yet to come, but that wasn’t a barrell of laughs in England either. But I’ve just had my lunch in the sun, & it was very nice!

the lesson I’ve learnt: When in Ireland, we can become desperate to escape. When away, we want to return home, & discover that it’s actually pretty good around here.

On the whole, Irish people can have a tendency to complain about what we’ve got. Perhaps it’s in asking for something better which helps us progress. I know i couldn’t wait to get out before i left, but now on my return, I can see my folly.

The industry is picking up here guys – lets put a more positive view of the place out there! ‘cos i can really see it from where i’m standing!

Wo Wo Wo guys, i didn’t mean to put a negative spin on Ireland. Really. I was just talking from a personal perspective.

I have heard good things about Galway & StarCave, indeed when I heard they were developing with the almighty ‘Reality Engine’ I was very impressed. Seen Camelot Demo, loved it. Very Zelda’ish (which is a great thing.)

I accept the fact that things are changing (for the better), with guys like Phooka in Derry, Torc in Muff, StarCave in Galway, Havok in Dublin, and the rest of the gang scattered about.

With respect to costs in London & costs, a few of my classmates, BSc Grads are over there, making mobile games for 8-Bit Games, and they reckon they are banking far more cash than they could here. (By here, I mean the North West of Ireland).

I just can’t help feeling that, for lack of a better metaphor, ‘far away fields are greener…’

that’s cool, we’ve all got our own experiences & perspectives to draw upon.

I just wanted to make the point that Ireland has long lived with the opinion that there are more opportunities in the UK than here, & now that things are beginning to even out, we need to recognise it, & maybe not plan to leave home too quickly. There’s a lot of talent, skill & experience in Ireland, & among the Irish abroad, so if we make an effort, we’ll really make a name for the country as a centre of quality development.

Admittedly we don’t have developers quite on the scale of some of the giants in the UK just yet, but then the industry here is so much younger, & doing incredibily well for it’s time. & not just on a games level, but the economy is a lot more level now, if not even better here. Just don’t put all your money on them far away fields too quickly. But then sometimes you do need the furthest fields to be the home ones in order to truly appreciate them. That certainly worked for me. :wink:

Mind you, if you want to leave Ireland for the adventure & mind-broadening experience that it brings, that’s totally different! :D

Well there certainly is a bit off wanderlust involved in my choice to migrate. I’d view the likes of Dave Perry as role models, who’s foot-steps I’d like to follow in.

As for adventure, well a 4ft tall green mate of mine once said…

“Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi Craves Not These Things…”

But then again, I was always a bit fond of the dark side…

……….. these are not the malteasers you are lookin for jediboy……….. :twisted:

Heh, I was just about to mention following in Dave Perry’s footsteps and moving over to Laguna Beach. I remember way back a few yers ago reading a feature about him in Pc Zone with the header “Living The Playboy Lifestyle In Laguna Beach” didnt look to bad to be honest… :D

No doubt about it, Dave [Perry] is the man. I think I seen the same article, he’s got a helicopter and a ferrari. Not bad for a skin from Northern Ireland….

Think he dropped the ball a bit, with the Matrix game (ya know the one that takes place between II & III), but they seem to be gettin back on track with the upcoming title “The Path of Neo”

Aye I remember that article… Though didnt his wife take a big chunk of his cash…. I do remember a story about a big earning member of the industry getting divorced once he made it big or some sort…. I think that was Mr. Perry. I could be wrong though…. Moral of the story prenup that or stay a bachelor for the rest of your life.

I think a lot of people look up to dp as he likes to call himself….apparently he’s very tall :wink:

He’s extremely down to earth, I emailed him a while back and within a few minutes he’d replied with loads of suggestions on how to get into the industry as a programmer…. almost made me want to go buy The Matrix game… but I quickly came to my senses.

I’d ask for my 3 euro back….

Absolute waste of whatever a CD-Rom is made of…

> I think that was Mr. Perry. I could be wrong though…. Moral of the story prenup that or stay a bachelor for the rest of your life.

When I worked for Dave a few years ago, Shiny were definitely the top original game developer, and are definitely back on track with their new Matrix game.

Regarding his motor, not only did he get a top of the range red Dodge Viper, he then souped up to the hilt… it was a pure flying machine. There was typically a race to get parked at the other side of the car park, no one wanted their motor sitting beside it and looking bad :)

Chopper and huge mansion aside ( with king size pianos etc, attached swimming pool, had a few cool parties there ( and Irish sessions, he has a set of pipes and can knock out a good beat on the Bodhran ) ), he’s done very well for himself!

He’s very cool to work for on top of that, so if anyone gets the chance to apply for work out there I’d highly recommend it. They typically will only hire people with experience though ( especially with the costs of relocating and legalities like getting work visas for non-US citizens ).

Mal

working on the work visa as we speak…

As I said a bang up guy and I’d agree the Path of Neo is looking as though it will finally give the Matrix franchise a game it deserves…probably more then it deserves after 2 and 3….

So you wanna work for Dave Perry huh? Well the undertaking in the following link is still open and if you finish you are guaranteed a spot to work with him. Best of luck. :twisted:
http://www.dpfiles.com/showthread.php?t=99

So you wanna work for Dave Perry huh? Well the undertaking in the following link is still open and if you finish you are guaranteed a spot to work with him. Best of luck. :twisted:
http://www.dpfiles.com/showthread.php?t=99%5B/quote:0affc410ed%5D

Only a student could complete that task :)

I just wanted to make the point that Ireland has long lived with the opinion that there are more opportunities in the UK than here, & now that things are beginning to even out, we need to recognise it, & maybe not plan to leave home too quickly. There’s a lot of talent, skill & experience in Ireland, & among the Irish abroad, so if we make an effort, we’ll really make a name for the country as a centre of quality development.

Admittedly we don’t have developers quite on the scale of some of the giants in the UK just yet, but then the industry here is so much younger, & doing incredibily well for it’s time. & not just on a games level, but the economy is a lot more level now, if not even better here. Just don’t put all your money on them far away fields too quickly. But then sometimes you do need the furthest fields to be the home ones in order to truly appreciate them. That certainly worked for me.[/quote:ab708eb2fe]

Okay, firstly, when it comes to graduate entry games industry jobs, the difference between the uk and ireland is huge, don’t kid yourself. One of the things thats worrying me with this new games incentive by the government is the fact that yes they are supporting the indroduction of games courses, but where are those students going to find jobs. In 4 years time there’s going to be 100+ students graduating from all these new courses but what are the government doing about providing employment for these graduates. There are a few small companies in the country and then there is the possibility of DC Studios coming something in the future ( maybe ). With the new console generation beginning, its becoming even harder to start up a new company without some serious money and experience to show off to publishers. What are the government doing about this ????

My personal opinion is that the Irish games industry really needs a major player to kick start it.

If one of the bigger developers set up in the country, within 5 years there would probably be 10 or more spinoffs, all with proven ability to get games made.

Look at the history of small towns like Leamington or Guildford.

One could also argue that there is no point waiting around to be spoonfed by an international developer.

Dave

I agree that there is no point sitting around waiting for something to happen, but I don’t see international investment as “being spoonfed”.

I am sure with the amount of skills and enthusiasm in Ireland the industry will grow eventually.

I really doubt however that homegrown companies can hope to employ all of those talented people over the next 5 years, so much of the talent is going to waste or going overseas.

Other governments are doing something in order to develop their gamesindustry:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=11273

http://www.film.vic.gov.au/newmedia/index.shtml

The difference between Ireland & the UK’s Games industries certainly still have a gulf between them in scale alright, & while there is also more graduates being hired there without experience, the fact is that is is also beginning to happen here as well. Development is picking up in Ireland, & it shouldn’t be people’s first thought that they will certainly have to leave the country in order to find work.

I may have sounded somewhat strong with my use of the phrase Omen quoted, but it was not intended to be purely game related. While there is still a wide gap between the gaming industries of the two islands, it is very true in wider economical terms. I did also say that we’re doing very well for our length of time in the development field, which is also dwarfed by the UK.

& as the economy continues to do so well, & so many talented people are trained up in development, the end result is going to be more companies being set up. & as Skyclad just argued, you don’t have to wait for an international developer to give you a leg up. & now with Internet Publishing opening up new avenues of distribution, dealings with publishers have more possibility as we don’t necessarily have to rely on getting a big publisher to provide the money to press the units for distribution through shop outlets.

I do agree that the government should take a bigger initiative in encouraging new & existing companies to grow & find a foothold in the gaming market though. Long have governments had the opinion that games were not worth taking seriously. They may have the idea that if enough people are trained in the skills, eventually one or two of them will manage to get a company together, & they are right in some ways. But additional help is always appreciated, & the graduates of the gaming courses are going to need more than just an expectant watchfulness from the government to get them started.

But then considering archimage3D’s post about developers multipling – this is partly because there are then experienced people in the area. There are a lot of experienced Irish people who left Ireland to find jobs. If they start to return back home with the experience they’ve gathered, then you’ve got your experienced start-up company!

Its all well and good saying, why don’t we just do it ourselves, but when you read the Pooka article on the front page you see the difficulties involved and the cash required to even get noticed. Its much much easier to to try prove yourself to a publisher if you have a track record. When you look at the numbers that are going to be on the look-out in 4 years, the numbers just don’t add up in my mind. In the way there aren’t really many grad jobs now, lets say things really do well and we get several big boys in and even a few home growns, look at the numbers again, they’re never going to be able to employ the numbers from all the new games courses.
This is why I always think that a good grounding in general soft eng and coding is essential, because some/lots of these guys are going to be disappointed with the number, or lack of vacancies when they come looking to start out.

I agree with Omen,

I find that my ‘traditional’ Software Eng. are used to pay the bills, by developing CMS for e-commerce sites and related.

From looking at the prospectus’s of the new-breed of courses, there is very little room outside of games where these grads will be able to go.

I suppose some could work with Architects (3D Visualisations) if they’re technical drawing skills are up to scratch, and the ART-Heads could do some graphic design work, but overall I see one helluva bottle-neck appearing in the next 5 years.

All is not bleak though. I had lunch with Dermot Ahern a while back, before he was Minister for Foreign Affairs, I think his post at the time was minister for Enterprise Trade & Employment or equivalent.

Anyway, I took the time to stress to him about the emerging games industry in Ireland and told him to look at Scottish Enterprises website and the kind of cash they are boasting because of the games industry. He shocked me by quoting figures back at me, and saying that his department were ‘on-top’ of it.

This was down at the CMESP/MIDAS programme in Dundalk IT, which I’m pretty sure is his home town, so maybe in his new capacity he could allure some of the foreign companies to our shores.

What do ya’s reckon, make him our “Poster-Boy” for the Irish games industry???

I can see the campaign slogans now…
VOTE AHERN, HE’LL BRING NINTENDO HERE!

Anyway, I took the time to stress to him about the emerging games industry in Ireland and told him to look at Scottish Enterprises website and the kind of cash they are boasting because of the games industry. He shocked me by quoting figures back at me, and saying that his department were ‘on-top’ of it.

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They probably werent “on top of it it”, he just said that so he could enjoy his lunch in peace :)

chill out Omen, it’s not the Apocalypse just yet.

Yes, there are indeed a lot of graduates on the way. And no, it’s not very likely that even most of them will get jobs in Ireland. But this is nothing new. There’s been gaming courses around for years, & abosolutely no jobs whatsoever in Ireland for the graduates. That didn’t stop us from trying though. However, the point is that situation is now better than it has ever been.

Yes, there are great difficulties in setting up a games company, we all know that. Pooka’s unfortunate failure is a reminder & a warning of just how cynical & conservative publishers tend to be. But then you could look at the other companies that have made themselves a success instead. No, none of them is composed entirely of graduates, but you don’t get people with purely a college education running a successful business in many industries. There are very good reasons that experience is required when employing top level staff.

But as i already mentioned, the advent of internet publishing will give developers more power. As new technologies & advancements continue to present themselves, what has gone before, is not necessarily the blueprint for what will always happen. & as JediBoy has just pointed out, the government is aware of the situation as well. A few more incentives, initiatives & assistances could definately be used, & hopefully they’re on the way! There are changes happening, & the unadventurous publishers with no interest in games beyond profits, do not hold complete sway over all our futures.

If students want to study something that isn’t related to games, they shouldn’t take a course in games! These courses should certainly be aiming at gaming jobs & requirements. They should never expect the students to fail, & get a job in something else based on that qualification.

We’re not accountants though, there is no smooth glide into a 40k job with benefits at the end of a games course. People make games because they enjoy it. And Because of this there’s a lot of stiff competition & hard work involved, not just to get in the door of a company, but throughout your gaming career as well. But just because the task isn’t necessarily an easy one, it doesn’t mean you should clear the playing field before the game begins. I certainly doubt that those entering these courses have too many illusions about having an easy time of it “playing games all day”, as the stereotype goes.

So if you really want, you can sit & moan about how many graduates will be around in a few years, or you can concentrate on the positive implications of this, the follow on effect of so many games graduates will stimulate the industry & force the government to take more steps in esuring the growth of the industry, & how the games industry in Ireland is improving overall. We should be glad that so many people are getting the opportunity to pursue a gaming career, not shouting doom & gloom about it.

I’m not moaning about the fact, I’m more worried about the fact there are going to be more people looking for jobs that aren’t there. Coming out of a games degree is going to qualify you for a games job, and not that many other computer jobs should you find yourself without.
That’s why I’m a firm believer in teaching a good grounding in soft eng, that gives you the basis to do other jobs should you not find a games job and you need to support yourself while looking. I’m not saying do a games course and look for a job elsewhere, I’m being realistic about the number of vacancies there are and what a games grad is actually able to do.

I find that alot of the people who have left Ireland in the past get to use to being abroad waiting for the home scene to pick up…they have houses, kids, etc. and need to see security in order to return.

I think as much as I love what I am seeing at the moment I get the impression that most folk want to see a foreign devco set up in Ireland before comitting to return. (Hey Sega Racing Studio…you missed your chance ;) )

Most Programmers I know can fall back on non-game jobs, I guess they have good general skills from growing up programming back in the 80’s and 90’s. I would be interested to see how a specialist graduate programmer (say in A.I.) would get on if he was forced to get a non game job (for what ever reason).

Speaking to other level design folk they agree – we are sort of on a odd path; the skill doesnt really transfer to other non-game jobs. Most dont have a ‘get out of jail card’ :p Maybe you can work on your 3D skills to be a artist and take it from there.

My fall back career is bar-man. My friend’s is…er….he doesn’t know…..

Artists…well that skill can transfer – TV, Film, Adverts…

Hey,

Ya know if you can complete Super Mario Bros. without losing a single lift, I think Nintendo send you out a Certificate saying that your a qualified plumber, just like Mario….

Its true, really!!!

B.

Yeah, fall back careers are handy…

I call it multiclassing…
:wink:

er ok….

My fall back career is a web developer… god I have to get into the games industry I’ll be pulling out my hair if this carries on much longer. I don’t wanna be bald!!!!

Is it bad if my fall back career is killing people? :twisted: Just kidding. I am a computer dork, just happen to also carry the title of Marine. I am pretty adaptable and don’t have many strings. My wife is the same way, and with no kids, other than our 80 freaking lbs dog we don’t have to worry about taking much with us. That way I can find a place to live, then worry about work.

Soldier is a pretty cool fall back carreer, if you ask me. It’s not like we are going to run out of wars any time soon… although I suppose you can’t just join another country’s army like that, can you? :lol:

lk: I was making a Dungeons n Dragons joke, there… I am multiclassed Programmer/Artist/Lecturer. :)

Hey Frog, Speaking of D&D, did you see D&D 2 : The Elemental Might?

As far as I know, its released in the states later this month, but some ‘cowboys’ whom you are acquainted with fandango’d an ‘early release and they gave it the thumbs up.

Its no Conan / BeastMaster / Red Sonja, but then again not much is. Its a SQUILLION times better than the first one though…

(Pirating movies is bad. Very Bad. Shame On All You Pirates!)

…YARRRRR!

A recent story on slashdot & wired reported that 90% of online piracy is committed by males.

She must be one of the 10%…

I think that’s a USB Pen Drive (2GB) she’s offering to her Pirate Master. Probably got Adobe CS 2 on it. Someone contact the coast guard…

And as for this guy, I reckon he’s got the new Final Fantasy movie in that treasure chest of his!

Philippe you distract him with your Frog-ness, and I’ll make a grab for the DVD’s.

I think I see a Donegal Jersey under that coat of his, what did I tell ya’s boys, they’re at it up there in those hills!

Here ya’s go guys! This picture was taken at Killybegs yesterday. Pirates of the Donegal Coast…

I know mate. While I never played the board game I have played enough RPGs to know the term. And I stand by my “err ok…” although I’m thinking it would be better suited to the last 5 posts :wink:

speaking of DnD2 I am getting a lend of it soon :)

Yaaarrrh !

Now philippe, I hope when you say your getting a
“lend of it soon”. that you mean 6-8 months, when it is officially released on DVD…

Or are you sporting a stylish wooden peg-leg these days…eh?

Pet Parrot on standby?