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I hear Dare interviews are on next Friday. Do we have many teams on the boards here ?
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me ;)
i hear that there are 4 teams
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I think there were very few entries this year actually ..that was said in passing to me and has not been confirmed officially…
..it would be interesting to find out why.. is it the process, is it the timing of the slection process (clashes with projects/ exams etc.), it is the time committment over the summer??
Aphra.
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Thats not good. I know there is so much organisational work done for it and so many new countries wanting to be involved. Hope there is enough interest to keep the irish chapter running in future years.
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Is this just for Northern Ireland or for the Republic as well? It’s easy to imagine so few entries if it is NI, but I’d expect the Republic to have a good few candidates.
I’ve got a friend from down south who I’d love to team up with next year. Of course I’m happy that there’s now a team from Northern Ireland, just hope it doesn’t cause problems with getting him entered alongside me.
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Does it get the publicity it deserves within unis?
Last year it got a huge turnout at the information day I attended, was it a similar turnout this year?
I reckon finding a team in Ireland may be a bigger problem as we don’t have unis that do both art and programming do we ? -
i’m talking about thr north. the timeing for the submission and interviews are terrible, right in the peak of course hand-in times!
our team is finding it very hard tot get time to prepare for the interviews (all 4th years bar me…i’m a 3rd year placement)
it would have been better if it was earlier in the year
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Does it get the publicity it deserves within unis?
Last year it got a huge turnout at the information day I attended, was it a similar turnout this year?
I reckon finding a team in Ireland may be a bigger problem as we don’t have unis that do both art and programming do we ? [/quote:c1c415cea8]
Even still, I presume most of Ireland’s applications will be coming from Dublin. Surely then it would be easy enough for students to meet up at the information day and then keep in touch. Colleges are ‘encouraged’ to work together to get enter a few good teams. As there’s so many colleges in Dublin I can’t think what the problem could be.Not sure about outside of Belfast, but been I’ve been in and out of Jordanstown and QUB a lot lately and I haven’t seen one post up on the notice boards.
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there was a few a4 posters in block 4 in jtown and it was posted on the IMD website.
what i hear there are 2 teams from ulster (one form jtown, and one from one the other campus) and 2 from NWIFHE
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Your talking about getting people who don’t know each other or their abilities to commit their summers together. Its not an easy thing to organise.
Just checked out the websites and only 2 irish people advertised their skills on the main website, and no irish team advertised they were looking for people. DTBD.ie forum isn’t even in use this year. I was the last person to make a post and that was over a year ago. -
Well theres hasnt been a mention about it around DCU. I mentioned it to one of the lecturers also and he hadn’t even heard of it. There really is a big lack of publicity for the event it seems…
I intend doing it in 3rd or 4th year but it depends on where I get my placement really…I doubt there’ll be much encouragemnt around here though…:confused:
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Would have expected Dave Sinclair to be interested in it as he used to do a game ai course. Is he still around these days ?
Think it Charlie Daly or Joe Morris or someone told one of the guy i did Dare with that there was no money in games so not suprised they aren’t pushing it… -
Yea havnt seen Joe around in ages. One of the lads mentioned it to Charlie and he didnt really seem that interested really. Meh I’m not sure about the “no money in games” response, regardless people dont seem to be doing it for the money…:)
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bet if you show them some stats from the industry of how much its worth, you might get more support. i know when i showed it to the u.c.c biy’s they were very interested. although i doubt theres a u.c.c. dare team. probably know nothing about the competition.
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There were meant to be 6 teams for interviews, they could only muster 5. I was in one, and I put programmers in two others. So if I hadn’t bothered god knows what they would have done.
Sadly we didn’t make it but one of the teams that I put a programmer into won the Irish heat… Not sure what their chances are like, the programmer is a good guy, though other then that I don’t know much else about the team.
Overall I don’t think the competition is organised well enough. Judging a team on an idea isn’t really an indication of how well the team will work. But then I might just be bitter ;-) Maybe selecting members based on individual skills would be better, more like a real job…
Anyway I hope the team do Ireland proud, I’m sure they will
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Overall I don’t think the competition is organised well enough. Judging a team on an idea isn’t really an indication of how well the team will work. But then I might just be bitter ;-) Maybe selecting members based on individual skills would be better, more like a real job… [/quote:26deac5427]
maybe next year anyone interested in participating should submit their details and skill set to this site and then ye could all group off.
Would allow teams to get the best programmers, artists, sound guys into teams, instead of 1 really good programmer and 2 mediocre etc or a brilliant artist and programmers which cannot use this art well.
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Yeah maybe, they offer something like that on the main dare site. They really need to update the Irish site, it’s pretty much dead.
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Overall I don’t think the competition is organised well enough. Judging a team on an idea isn’t really an indication of how well the team will work.[/quote:49878fbdef]
If you didn’t spend some time during your presentation selling your team to the board of interviewers and proving that you were a team capable of creating your game, you missed a crucial part of the interview. The game idea is important, but just as important is the concept of proving your team skills in the interview.
Hard luck with not going through, maybe next year. -
That’s a bit hard, when the idea isn’t yours and you only met the team that thursday. But in saying that the winning team only met their programmer 5 min before the meeting.
Next year is not an option, I’m in my final year already.
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speaking of dare ive just been on the site and downloaded that game demon lore. looks cool. although unzipped and ran it, screen faded to white and then dumped me back to windows?
anyone able to shed some like so i can play it? -
maybe next year anyone interested in participating should submit their details and skill set to this site and then ye could all group off.[/quote:772b0cd92b]
The forum on the irish site was set up specifically for this purpose last year and it had a bit of use. Dare spent some time on improving the home site this year and probably wanted that site to be used as it was tailored for multiple regions so i guess the .ie site got left behind. -
lk_:
You could next year if you wanted…up to 2 team members can be graduated a year if i remember the rules correctly.Pete_b:
Emm…what graphics card have you got? Think we were running on nVidia back during the competition and had serious issues with ATI cards. We fixed some of the problems with various nVidia cards after the competition but never got around to looking at ATI issues. Could have problems with newer graphics cards.
Did you get any of the game menus appearing, think it started with our logo on a white screen…its been awhile….ps, thanks for the compliments :)
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Nah saw no logos, menus etc.
ya its an ati radeon i have down here.So i guess thats the problem.
sure ill stick on the mp3 player and bring home for the laptop. got a geforce 3 in that. -
That’s a bit hard, when the idea isn’t yours and you only met the team that thursday. But in saying that the winning team only met their programmer 5 min before the meeting.[/quote:14c2d0eee5]
I think there’s one of the major problems. Proving that a team can work together when they barely know each other is tough.
One of the biggest complements they gave us after completing the competition was how well how team seems to work in harmony, especially during presentations. ( they’d have been shocked if they saw what it was really like though, i wanted to fire one of our team ) -
yeah, reckon it should run on a geforce. I tried it on a very low spec radeon and it was only drawing half the tris for some reason and someone was saying they couldn’t get it to run at all on a 9700. Reckon its just an ati specific problem. Maybe i should get them to say it mightn’t work on ATIs on the website.
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5 teams selected for this year’s interviews in RoI and 4 in NI
Interviews in NI are Fri May 6th
I’m one of the interviewers in the NI heat so I won’t comment on what’s been posted so far (although I’m dying too!)… but after the interviews i’ll post more fully on the topic
One thing I will say now though is that any teams selected for interview this year would do well to heed Omen’s advice… on this topic, anyway! (not so sure about his views on EA … or his antipathy towards producers!!!)
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One thing I will say now though is that any teams selected for interview this year would do well to heed Omen’s advice… [/quote:957731aea8]
Im really looking forward to the interview next friday, cant wait! Thanks alot omen for your advice. :)
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nitpathy[/quote:ec905647fc]
Another one to add to the list….
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We’ve a team in the Yorkshire area interviews on May 10th.
And we found it an absolute pain finding good artists. (Like most Irish universities) the University of Hull has no suitable art courses; there are few artists within spitting distance; and we found the daretobedigital.com vacancy board a waste of effort (no timely replies at all). A few days spent phoning course heads in every eligible university in the area eventually reaped its rewards.
On an aside, I’m surprised at how many teams enter with only one programmer. Isn’t the programmer/artist split in developers still fairly close to fifty/fifty even now? I definitely wouldn’t fancy being the only programmer on a project that was going to innovate in anything other than artistic style, and I fancy myself as a coder n’all ;)
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( they’d have been shocked if they saw what it was really like though, i wanted to fire one of our team ) [/quote:eba63cc81a]
Your team wasn’t the one Jacqueline was giving out about, was it??
lk_:
You could next year if you wanted…up to 2 team members can be graduated a year if i remember the rules correctly.[/quote:eba63cc81a]Not really an option, by next year I hope to be in full time employment. I have already agreed to a full time web designer position for a local company. Though I hope to eventually get into games, as it’s something I’ve always been interested in. I’ll join a mod or something to get more experience with game development, I’ve already worked on a number of mods.
Yeah the winning team this year has only 1 programmer….
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Nah, Jackie loves us :) She managed to get me my first job after Dare. The year before us had some strange teams that they had problems with.
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One thing I will say now though is that any teams selected for interview this year would do well to heed Omen’s advice… on this topic, anyway! [/quote:cde8f86693]
See!
I do have my uses :) -
I’m one of the interviewers in the NI heat so I won’t comment on what’s been posted so far (although I’m dying too!)… but after the interviews i’ll post more fully on the topic[/quote:1ccf9a9f21]
You could write up a “What we looked for…” document and if it happened to come back into the public eye next year before the interviews, it could be a very valuable document ;) -
Yeah something like that would be handy. Most of my team had applied the year before but still didnt really know what the judges wanted. This kind of info really should be on the web site, to help people make the best possible entry…….
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You could write up a “What we looked for…” document and if it happened to come back into the public eye next year before the interviews, it could be a very valuable document ;) [/quote:2adfd410c8] that’s pretty much what I intend to do
Yeah something like that would be handy. Most of my team had applied the year before but still didnt really know what the judges wanted. This kind of info really should be on the web site, to help people make the best possible entry……. [/quote:2adfd410c8] i actually think it’s fairly clear what the judges want (at least as its stated in the docs and mails i’ve seen)… it’s the execution/understanding of the applicants that’s in need of help, I think
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I have to agree with Tony.
We were pretty clear on what we needed to prove when we went into the interview, and as such were able to prepare for it. -
actually think it’s fairly clear what the judges want (at least as its stated in the docs and mails i’ve seen)… it’s the execution/understanding of the applicants that’s in need of help, I think [/quote:5be154a8f8]
We got no mails, or at least they were never passed on to me.
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nor did we, + the website is very poorly laid out
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Yeah the site really needs some work.
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nor did we [/quote:5deb2084ec] actually, you did, Patrick – I was copied on one of them.
The email inviting you to the interviews is pretty specific, if high level, about how and what you should do at the interviews
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i thought you meant mails and docs as in a letter or something… yeah the email did clear things up a bit, but it would have been nicer if there was more info online(earlier).
for lk_, what we where told
As there will only be 1 team placed, you will have to convince the judges
your team/product is the best.
Treat this like a ‘pitch’- sell us your vision.
All team members to be present.
Please dress smart casual – no need for ties or suits.
You should prepare a Powerpoint presentation for 10 minutes covering the
points below:
NB; You MUST bring your own laptop so that we can connect it to our data
projector.1. The game; what makes it special/stand out from the crowd (think of the
playability/addiction) and what is the market for your game (who will play
it?) (try to back this up with market research)2. Your team; what makes them able to deliver
Where possible all team members should have a role to play in the
presentation, don’t just leave it to the team leader to do the talking.The total interview time is only 35 mins; 10 mins presentation, 15 mins with
judges asking questions relating to your game.All the judges are from our sponsors and industry – there is no-one from
universities/colleges, so this is an industry selection.Judges do not want to ‘catch you out’ or trip you up – they just want to
assess the best team to represent Northern Ireland.You will be able to bring screen shots/story boards/character drawings –
anything visual you think will help convey the feeling of your game.I will be available to answer questions before you go/when you come out of
interview.[/quote:f0da366251]what i’m more confused about is about the contest, the dates (when it starts and finishs + other inportant info) is hidden in the internation students section!
don’t get me wrong i think the contest is a brillant idea, i just think that the unuser friendlyness of the main website and lack of info put off some people… but for me thats a good thing… less entries means more of a chance for my team ;)
what ever happens this year (if i get though or not) i’m going to help premote it a bit more around the uni.
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yikes, I wish my team had of mailed me that. I was kinda blind going into it. Though it’s not a great excuse as I said Mark(the programmer on the winning team) only met his team 5 mins before the interview…
Anyway too late now, exams to finish and then get paid for web sites, work on a programming portfolio and work for a mod….. I’ll be busy for the next couple of months.
Cheers for the info Darksaviour
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Yup, thats the kind of info that was needed and given to the team leads.
Irish Dare website was completely ignored this year from what I’ve seen of it, but was a big shame.
The main website was outsourced this year and i was asked for feedback on it when it was first produced. I said my piece about what I thought of it, but my suggestions and advice were ignored as I think I hurt the deisgners feelings and his artistic ego. -
Maybe next year they should email everyone on the team…
…… hurt the deisgners feelings and his artistic ego. [/quote:084f823014]
lol, it’s a shame it needed some good advice.
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They went from a kind of high tech, although maybe not that well organised look to a cute kiddy-ish look this year. *Sigh*
I’d offered to help update it previously but they were contractally a stuck at the time… -
The Irish Dare site has a good summary of the ten weeks the team spent there. Gives you a basic idea of what to expect. :)
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Just had a read of that, think i just read bits of it before. Its pretty accurate as to what to expect. Although I can’t believe they waited on deciding on what engine to use and order licences during week 1, leaving lots of document reading during the first weeks.
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don’t get me wrong i think the contest is a brillant idea, i just think that the unuser friendlyness of the main website and lack of info put off some people… but for me thats a good thing… less entries [/quote:e2df1653e5] the Dare website is pretty appalling, both in terms of finding any info and it’s look and feel
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Right first post in the forums so hello everybody.:cool:
I’m a 1st year in Ballyfermot’s game design HND, we were considering putting in an entry. We didn’t in the end and incase anyone wants to take note here are some of the principle reasons:
1) Conflicting information about who could and could not enter. I had 2 recent graduates in mind for my team, but could not get a final word on how recently they had to have been studying (1 or 2 years), and from when that time period started(last day of term, last day of exams, arbitrary dtae in last year of study, graduation ceremony date, etc.)
2) Programmers are REALLY hard to come by. I talked to a few people from different parts of the country, but the game we had in mind involved some pretty original stuff, so I needed a programmer I could see every other day to make sure what we wanted to do was possible. I could not find anyone.
3) As part of our course the 2nd years enter their projects into the competition. As a first year I had my own projects and exams to take, as did the rest of the team (who were all coming from my class) so why add more pressure?
4) I really fancy the idea we have, and didn’t think we could do it justice in the short time we had before the pitch, so we decided to hold it over for next year.
On a side note there are 18 people going through to our 2nd year in september. That is at least a further 3 full teams, and that figure assumes no one recruits from the outside (which is unlikely as we are a design course not a programming course) plus prehaps some of the incoming 1st years will have a go, and maybe some people from LUDO (the 1 year intro to gaming course).
Also as far as I know 4 teams entered from Ballyfermot, 3 from the diploma course and 1 from Ludo, and there was talk of a 5th team from another college (I think Trinity) so maybe there were 5 teams in total.
Nifty
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Are they from those game design courses are just programmers who have an interest in games?
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I think they came from lk_’s course, so I’m guessing programmers with an interest?
Unless there’s a games course up that way that I was unaware of.
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hehe….
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Does anyone know what the winning concept is?
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No one is allowed to say anything until the official announcement in May. I was warned that too much may have already been said. Although I can’t imagine anyone getting disqualified over it.
Still maybe its best to sit and wait.
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As part of our course the 2nd years enter their projects into the competition.[/quote:6155374a9e]
Really??
Doing the design for the application would be beneficial, but if it was me, I’d rather wait until I felt I knew enough to win the competition ( probably final year ) rather than having to enter because its part of my course. Don’t think I agree with the thinking behind that initiative. -
2nd year is our final year. At least for the moment.
By the end of 1st year most of us have 2 or 3 working games under our belts anyway. Apart from programming we have a good spread of skills across the classes, between 2D/3D artist, sound engineers, animators, and there are 1 or 2 who have a good feel for game mechanics themselves.
Besides the way 2nd year is set up we have essentially 7 months of development time on our dare projects before the submission is due.
We do learn programming, through actionscript 1 atm, (the current 2nd years did c++ in 1st year but the learning curve was too great to tie in well with the other skills they were developing) and I think my year will be pretty competent engine scripters beofre the next competition rolls around.
If we all find dedicated programmers from outside I wouldn’t be at all worried about our capabilities, and I think some of us could get by even if outside help wasn’t available.
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Ah, I thought it was a 3 year course for some reason :confused:
I’d apply 2nd year then :) -
There is rumour about that they are trying to put together a 3rd year, but afaik its still just rumour at the moment
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7 months is a nice amount of time to be able to spend on your Dare proposal. Is it actually part of your course? When I was doing work for it I had to forgo doing a lip sync to get stuff done. Worked out in the end though.
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It practically is the course for 2nd year. In theory you should be able to get through 2nd year doing only work connected with your dare proposal.
Its only if your game is wildly removed from the course guidelines that you’ll need to do further projects in order to pass.
Lip sync, thats one I’ll need to read up on over the summer.
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Well technically they did do their work there :p
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Ah the Red Ruckus team, thats how I found out about Dare in the first place! :D
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Hi all,
I haven’t posted to GD in a long time, so to generally respond to a few topics in this thread going back to the start:
I believe the quiet response to the competition was simply due to lack of advertising. Last year I was sent a large pack of posters that went up all over BCFE and this year there was far less of that.
From Ballyfermot’s point of view, there were less animators interested this year than last year because the animation students in year 1 weren’t made aware of the competition (I don’t ever get to see them) and the 2nd years are up to their eyes with short film projects that amount to an animator’s equivalent of the Dare project itself, so you can imagine how busy they are. In future, if you’re a non-Ballyer student looking for an animator for your own Dare project, I suggest trying to make contact with HND Year 1 animation students.
I won’t say anything about the team or project going through to Scotland until after the official announcements on May 5th other than that it is inaccurate to say the team has only one programmer. They all have programming experience, although the latest addition to the team is, I believe, a particularly good programmer and I wish him all the best with our four guys from BCFE.
Programmers are saying artists are hard to find. Artists and game design students are saying that programmers are hard to find. This sounds like an issue the Dare website needs to address.
Having seen some students invest a lot of energy in this competition and then NOT get through makes me wonder where else a student can show off work and get recognised by the industry (other than applying for a job of course). Dare is a wonderful opportunity, but the judging criteria may not suit some people who have great ideas nonetheless. Where else can graduates showcase their work and be headhunted? Any ideas?
Shane
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7 months to work on your proposal?!?!?!?!
My god, we had a couple of meetings, threw the application together, had a couple of meetings threw the presentation together, got through, buggered off home for a month trying to organise things and then back a couple of weeks early to try clean up our engine before the start. ( We used an engine we wrote rather than buying one, but it was very basic at that stage ).
I think its unfair to have half the work done before the comp starts, but if work is done at the start, i think that is taken into consideration as there was discussions as to whether who would be considered to have a head start in our year, people who had bought an engine, and thus had to learn it but had all the features or our team engine which lacked features but we knew how it worked completely. -
I don’t think preparation time is unfair. The one thing that stuck with me, from the Dare presentation in November, was that none of the games looked remotely finished.
I could see where Red Ruckus was going, but the party fruit game left me lost. And when I looked up the other entrants on the web I also had very little idea what those games would be like.
With only 10 weeks competition time for the finalists, I would hope that, for my project, at least half of that time would be spent bug testing the final product. I don’t see how anyone can expect to accurately portray their vision of a game with only 10 weeks work.
The way I see it they launch the competition in November, and I think they do expect you to be working at it almost immediately. Especially now that its been runnig a few years. There are bound to be people holding over ideas to the next year, or re-entering after modifying a failed submission.
I also believe it would be impossible to really enforce a level of readiness going into the finals. If I’m told a team is only allowed bring x number of models, y minutes of sound fx/music, and z amount of pre-written code, then I’ll simply select the toughest pieces, bring them intact, and have the whole team practice the easier pieces time and time again until they can re-create them in a fraction of the time.
Its a serious competition, with an invaluable prize to any games student, so I would expect nothing but the best from myself, my team, and the other teams.
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I don’t see how anyone can expect to accurately portray their vision of a game with only 10 weeks work.[/quote:5d71e40dc3]
Umm, I think we did that. We did a little bit of work on our level editor before the start but thats about all we went in with. Our artist spent about 4-5 weeks of Dare learning how to use Max properly and then the rest of it building all our models, textures and level. ( She won a special prize in the end ).Its expected that you don’t really have that much time to work on it due to the fact that you are in uni and have projects to be doing.
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Its expected that you don’t really have that much time to work on it due to the fact that you are in uni and have projects to be doing.[/quote:d4c9cdae49]
I don’t think that will be the case for long. Abertay obviously give their students space ahead of the competition to prepare, as do BCFE. I know that one of the Bradford entries started preparing in late august/early september.
The competition is relatively new so standards are going to be inf lux for little while yet, but with more and more games specific courses coming online, I would expect the judges to be looking for a more developed product every year.
Our artist spent about 4-5 weeks of Dare learning how to use Max properly and then the rest of it building all our models, textures and level. ( She won a special prize in the end ).[/quote:d4c9cdae49]
She deserves a medal, never mind a special prize. That was no mean feat, and I hope her ability to learn is being being noticed by whatever companies she’s applying to. But when you say “the rest” do you mean all the other time right up to the deadline? or does that include corrections following play testing?
As for prep time, I’ve been researching various areas of my idea since september, but have held off doing real work on it until next september. I didn’t want to start with one team, and come back to my final year to find some of them missing, it wouldn’t have been fair on anybody at that stage.
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Where else can graduates showcase their work and be headhunted? Any ideas?[/quote:e0683f9561]
At ECTS in august there is a special area for small developers. As many as 10 computers are set up in this area and you can book them (in advance of the show afaik) for a couple of hours, to show off your game to publishers.
That would appear to suit Dare entrants, plus any other students who have prototypes ready. Prehaps even the college could book in their own name, and show portfolios, as an advirtisement for a showcase back in Dublin?
ECTS certainly isn’t a recruitment fair, in fact I’m not sure what its trying to be (I always get the impression of a poor man’s E3), but it is pretty easily accessed by small companies. I seem to remember 1 or 2 colleges taking stands there to promote their courses.
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Abertay obviously give their students space ahead of the competition to prepare[/quote:b71f8e5ad8]
?? I was in Abertay when I did it. We started preparing a couple of weeks before the start, and that was only a couple of us. The first time the 5 of us sat down for real work was day 1 of the competition., I would expect the judges to be looking for a more developed product every year.[/quote:b71f8e5ad8]
What more could be expected that what we produced…a fully playable level with several different enemies, a level boss, 2 player characters, sounds, effects, music single / multi player. The only things I think we could have improved on in the time would have been level design, more art work and inventory items. Zoo Crew, the other winning game my year was fantasic too.But when you say “the rest” do you mean all the other time right up to the deadline?[/quote:b71f8e5ad8]
I mean from about week 4 or 5 of the competition, she started producing all of our game art and continued producing until the last day, including models, levels, textures, gui, packaging, business cards, etc… She did 10 weeks work.Where else can graduates showcase their work and be headhunted?[/quote:b71f8e5ad8]
If a grad is good enough to be head-hunted, directly applying to a company with sample work should be good enough. They shouldn’t need to or expect a company to head-hunt them as grads. -
Originally posted by omen
I mean from about week 4 or 5 of the competition, she started producing all of our game art and continued producing until the last day, including models, levels, textures, gui, packaging, business cards, etc… She did 10 weeks work.
[/quote:8b93c2ff01]
Thats really impressive.
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If a grad is good enough to be head-hunted, directly applying to a company with sample work should be good enough.They shouldn’t need to or expect a company to head-hunt them as grads.[/quote:d0493ea74f]
I agree. I think most graduates are paranoid enough not to expect anything from possible employers. However, I don’t believe “good enough” is the frame of mind to be in when preparing for a job. Apply directly, yes, but enter shows and competitions and show off as much as you can. As a student, it’s about the only time in your life when people will set aside space for you to show your work and not (always) charge you a fortune to do it.
I had an animation student in another college who regularly applied for competions and consequently, was the only one in his class who had a decent and relevant CV before he graduated. In fact, regularly showing off his work and rating himself against people outside his class gave him an idea of how high the bar was raised. Before he left college he had done work that had appeared on MTV. Everyone else had as much of a chance as him, but he was the only one hungry enough to go for it.
At my own degree show when I was graduating, employers came round to view our work which was on display for two weeks. I would estimate that about 80% of the class were offered interviews on the strength of the show and most had jobs within two months. Very few actually went out applying to companies. I don’t know what the employment scene would be like for the same class today but you get the idea: employers don’t go to see these things without expecting to get some use out of them.
Shane
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Good point!
It’d be difficult for a uni that just thought art or programming as the scale of areas where you may end up is huge. You’d need dedicated courses like Computer Animation, Games Tech, etc to have a uni being able to entice enough companies to make it worth their while. -
And on that point too, I think that game design is demanding a less technical mind all the time. Look at the tools coming out for Unreal Engine 3.
Not to say, of course, that it requires a more artistic mind instead but I think the barrier to people who aren’t natural programmers is dropping over time.
Shane
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Only to produce any old thing. They could bring out the easiest engine on earth tomorrow, with sliders for everything from physics to complex AI, and within a year or 2 we’d be noticing the absence of the technical minds.
You can dress up a game as much as you like, change the graphics, sound, controls, probably the physics at this stage, but you’ll only be generating variations on a theme. Does GranTurismo 4 really do much better than for Need For Speed 3? Does Half Life 2 really do anything significantly better than the likes of TimeSplitters:Future Perfect?
If you want to change the game you’ll need those technical minds. You’ll need people who can take the gameplay you’ve conceived, analyse it, and translate it for the machine.
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within a year or 2 we’d be noticing the absence of the technical minds[/quote:e9bd170a3f]
I’d be surprised if an apocalyptic scenario like that came about. My guess is that they’d carry on as they are, or they’d use the easy-to-use tools to raise the bar (which I believe has historically been the case as tools have improved). People with the desire to create something will find a way to do it if they really want to and they’ll do it in whatever way is easiest for their own sensibilities. Technically-minded people will approach a design with that mindset. Artistically-minded people will approach a design differently — and more power to them.High-level or easy-to-use tools don’t necessarily mean a dumbing-down or a stifling of creativity if they are well designed. Compare the likes of Max and Maya to early 3D software like POV-Ray and look at who uses them now. Architects, simulators,animators, game designers use the same tools to do different and complex things. Motionbuilder is a tool that focuses on just a feature of big packages like Max and attempts to make animation easier. It does this, but that then allows the artist to reach further levels of sophistication.
Nobody says there’s ever one right way to do these things — we just use them in a way that we find easy for ourselves. (We don’t talk about all the wrong ways to do something, of course). I would love to see people who do not necessarily have technical, right-brain sensibilities with the means to enter game design and see a project through to a finished production. The variety could only be a positive thing.
Immediacy is what’s missing from game design and it won’t come about until the tools allow us to do it easily. A trained artist can produce a drawing that effectively communicates in seconds. A musician can invent and play finished music simultaneously. Our medium has nothing like that.
All directly relevant to the Dare competition, I assure you…
Shane
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Dundalk or Drogheda, I believe. [/quote:7bc33406df]
Dundalk
I think a major problem with Dare is that that often teams only start looking for programmers after they have decided on their project, this of course caues problems. Feedback I got from all of the programmers from here (including Mark)was that their teams often wanted stuff which is just not realistic in the time frame…..
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I’d be surprised if an apocalyptic scenario like that came about. My guess is that they’d carry on as they are, or they’d use the easy-to-use tools to raise the bar [/quote:1ef56e2d67]
I don’t know if its the same for anyone else, but every time I walk into game there are less and less games worth paying attention to. And often the games that I do pay attention to rest on the laurels of a particular gimmick. Case in point Half life 2, great physics but lazy story and not properly tested before release (I was experiencing glitches through out).
Immediacy is what’s missing from game design and it won’t come about until the tools allow us to do it easily.[/quote:1ef56e2d67]
I disagree to point of nearly saying that you are wrong, just flat out wrong. If it a game you want you can have pen, paper & dice model ready as the idea is formed, its when you want to integrate pretty bits that you get slowed down. Even reactions within an engine can be up within a day, you just have to be able to isolate the behaviors and extrapolate how other behaviors would occur from a base sample.
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I don’t know if its the same for anyone else, but every time I walk into game there are less and less games worth paying attention to. And often the games that I do pay attention to rest on the laurels of a particular gimmick. Case in point Half life 2, great physics but lazy story and not properly tested before release (I was experiencing glitches through out).
[/quote:2816d2e9bc]My god someone else who wasn’t too impressed with Half Life 2. You can get flamed for saying such things on lesser boards.
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i will agree, on the increase of less interesting games. i think this time of the year is the slump, before xmas we had half-life2, doom3, halo2 etc. now its coming up to summer.
although i will say im gettting increasingly pissed off with the amount of movies to games hitting the selves which are terrible to play, just claiming off the back of the movie; wolverines revenge, the punisher, riddick(possibly an expection), spiderman, xmen, LOTR’s.
and no doubt more on the way with fantastic four.
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I’ve been saying that for ages. Basically the influx of new genres has slowed down dramatically over the last few years and now new games are basically a new iteration of an existing one with one or two improvements in graphics and ai. Very few publishers are going with the games that dare to do something different. Lionhead is the only company at the moment that I think is constantly pushing things but they take ages in getting games out.
As for Halflife…still haven’t played it…
Immediacy is what’s missing from game design [/quote:659e9af579]
Yup especially at concept stage. -
Yeah Lionhead really seem to be doing things differently. I’m looking forward to seeing Black and White 2, not sure of what to make of Project Dimitri. Any ideas on what Molyneux has got planned?
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yeah im interested to see if they include in b&w2 the voice npcs which they left out in the first one because of tiem constraints. basically idea is that you talk to the character and they learn from this information and later on are supposably able to have a conversions with you, targeted at your interests, view\opinions
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Lol, brilliant Family Guy sig peter :)
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Article abuot Dare on GI.biz
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/press_release.php?aid=8396Apparently 38 teams in total applied.
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Hrm two things…
Can you licence on engine to use on your project in Dare? :confused:
Oh and omen when you entered Dare in Abertay I’m assuming you went for the Scottish/UK interviews?
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As far as I know they’ll try their best to get you whatever engine you want…though don’t hold your breathe for the latest build of the Unreal engine :D
Red Ruckus used the Torque engine (didn’t they??), as are this year’s team.
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Oh that explains it!
I’m just thinking, assuming I wait to take part until I (probably) go to Abertay I assume I’ll have to enter the Scottish interviews…gah, plus then I’ll lose the people I have gotten interested in it here…:(
Looks like I’m gona have two fourth year projects now! :D
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Yes – Irish entries come from Irish universities, scottish entries come from scottish universities :)
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ahem…:D
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I believe RenderWare is available free this year, allegedly with technical support.
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EA are one of the sponcers and they are suppling RenderWare. i think the are give mini classes or something on in the first few weeks
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well renderware is freely available to educational institutes. although classes in it might be useful to ye.
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Skyclad mentioned he was thinking of going?
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It was a BCFE team called parasite. THe game, unless I’ve gotten my wires crossed, is a racing game where you need to change the form of your vehicle to best cross different terrain types.
Oh and renderware is not completely free to educational institutions. You only get 10 licences for free, after that you have to pay.
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Actually it was a combined team BCFE and Dundalk IT provided the lead programmer. They’re called Team Doom and the game they’re entering is called RacXing (pronouncded ‘Racing X’). It’s a simulation of a fictional extreme sport where people go careering down slopes with wheels attached to their hands and feet, leaning left and right to steer.
Congratulations to the guys ;-)
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So what was parasite’s award for? and what game did they do?
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We got an award for coming second… or at least that’s what I was told in the email. I didn’t attend the shindig yesterday as I’ve my final year presentation to finish off…
The game is complicated, think of Messiah but more drastic.
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RacXing (pronouncded ‘Racing X’).[/quote:942612653c]
Bah! -
RacXing (pronouncded ‘Racing X’).[/quote:93dc57d1cc]
Bah![/quote:93dc57d1cc]lol, I’m sure there’s some crazy marketing reason for the X…….
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well its an extreme sports game, so X=extreme i guess ;)
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interview is today! so nervious :?
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well its an extreme sports game, so X=extreme i guess ;)[/quote:40e57616e6]
Never even thought of that….. :lol:
Best of luck Dark, am sure you’ll do great.
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well its a strange name any way
RacXing to me is “raczing”
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Hi guys,
Im on the team going to scotland in the summer. If you have any questions regarding the game or/and the team, ill answer them to the best of my knowledge :)
Regards,
Paul
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I think the X’s significance is that the characters form an X shape when racing. It’s a good concept. Looking forward to hearing how they get on.
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Im on the team going to scotland in the summer. If you have any questions regarding the game or/and the team, ill answer them to the best of my knowledge[/quote:f72ba13ee9]
Any chance of a brief concept description and a snippet of concept art ? -
We are through !!! I am a member of Silver Tongue software that got through from Northern Ireland. Well done to all the others teams !
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congratulations. Good to see the course is getting recognition.
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well done (grrr… :wink: )
we did not get it, but i thought we did well considering (2 of our team had assignments in for to day and the rest have work in soon, most of our teams were final years)it was a great experince, and i will be entering next year
good luck, rosdahale. show them what us northern Irishmen/women can do :wink:
btw what was you game idea?
also there was some guy on the panal called “Tony Kelly”, what was he about, he knew nothing about games! (or anything)…. what do u think Idora?
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We are through !!! I am a member of Silver Tongue software that got through from Northern Ireland. Well done to all the others teams ![/quote:5cfe6bc249]
Well done! I’m really happy that you guys got in. What did I tell ya, Richard?? :D -
What you guys doing ?
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“Tony Kelly” is from Torc Interactive, developers of the brilliant Torc engine, IDGA member and active member of this forum, and he probably knows more about games than anyone considering he is the project manager at Torc (i think, could be wrong). Anyway…………….
…I will have a chat to the team about showing some concept are and giving details about the game, dont want to go ahead and do realease anything without the whole teams say so. We will be realeasing all the info first on our forum, so pop along there and you can see it there (when we put it up very soon)
Once again well done to everyone who was there. :D
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“Tony Kelly” is from Torc Interactive, developers of the brilliant Torc engine, IDGA member and active member of this forum, and he probably knows more about games than anyone considering he is the project manager at Torc (i think, could be wrong).[/quote:23a2ce33ad]
Tony are you going to be on the final judging panel or something ??
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Well done to the winners and the losers. I imagine it took a lot of hard work and effort! :D
lol, I’m sure there’s some crazy marketing reason for the X[/quote:66dc33d9bc]
It’s because when people see “X”, they really see “SEX”…….
or maybe that’s just me…. *whistles*
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“Tony Kelly” is from Torc Interactive, developers of the brilliant Torc engine, IDGA member and active member of this forum, and he probably knows more about games than anyone considering he is the project manager at Torc (i think, could be wrong). Anyway…………….
[/quote:68a1cbcbc3]
Patrick was just joking.Good bio of Tony. Don’t forget his numerous awards! :D
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We are through !!! I am a member of Silver Tongue software that got through from Northern Ireland. Well done to all the others teams ![/quote:8080f0aba3]
Well done! I’m really happy that you guys got in. What did I tell ya, Richard?? :D[/quote:8080f0aba3]thanks ronny. was really tough competition. The other team from our class had a realy good presentation, organisation, everything. congrats to the teams from jordanstown and nwifhe/magee. il say again, really tough competition. i cant thank the members from this site enough, or anyone i have chatted to about this competition/event.
games developement is hotting up in northern ireland. cant wait for the nxt few years to roll on, so many courses, so many ppl, so many opportunities for companies. anyways, im blubering on :P thanks again, and hope to get more info up soon. -
Hi guys,
Im on the team going to scotland in the summer. If you have any questions regarding the game or/and the team, ill answer them to the best of my knowledge :)
Regards,
Paul[/quote:9594c06197]
Congrats Paul! Delighted for you!
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Patrick was just joking.
Good bio of Tony. Don’t forget his numerous awards! :D[/quote:ab93d5b020]
yeah i was only messing…. there goes my chance for next year :wink:
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bridge burned there alright .. hah
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After reading over the previous posts with amusement (and some bemusement, it has to be said)
Lol, brilliant Family Guy sig peter :)[/quote:4760d8e88d]
agreed. Cracked up when I saw it. the sigs are definitely getting funnier, as are some of the posts. you lot must really covet those Humour Awards!“Tony Kelly” is from Torc Interactive, developers of the brilliant Torc engine[/quote:4760d8e88d]
Torc Interactive are developers of the Instinct Engine and not Torc/Torque, or any derivative there of. Confusing, I know…Tony are you going to be on the final judging panel or
something ??[/quote:4760d8e88d]nope. was just on the NI heat interviewing/judging panelas promised, I’ll post later with what the judges were looking for and some suggested DO’s and DON’Ts for those considering entering next year. Although, the NI panel were only responsible for judging the NI heat, we did have access to the entries from Scotland, UK and RoI as well so feedback will be based on the whole
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nice to see the family guy quotes go down well.. saw some of the new episodes from the states. (handy relations). very funny indeed.
also watch out holder of the humour award, gunning for that next year. hahah
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They’ve brought it back for another season ??
Wahoo!! -
oh yeah.. dvd sales were the highest ever for a fox show, so its was uncancelled and put back in the prime time slot just before 24 in the states.
they even take the piss out of fox in the first episode about cancelling them
see quote belowEverybody, I’ve got bad news: We’ve been cancelled”
“Oh no, Peter, how could they do that?”“Well unfortunately Lois, there’s just no more room on the schedule. We just gotta accept the fact that Fox has to make room for terrific new shows like Dark Angel, Titus, Undeclared, Action, That 80’s Show, Wonderfalls, Fastlane, Andy Richter Controls the Universe, Skin, Girls Club, Cracking Up, The Pitts, Firefly, Get Real, Freaky Links, Wanda at Large, Costello, The Lone Gunmen, A Minute With Stan Hooper, Normal Ohio, Pasadena, Harsh Realm, Keen Eddie, The Street, American Embassy, Cedric the Entertainer, The Tick, Louie, and Greg the Bunny”
“Is there no hope?”
“Well, I suppose if all those shows go down the tubes, we might have a shot”
Started last sunday night week. back to the good old comedy style. also saw another show by seth macfarlene “american dad”, similar to family guy got the similar remember that time lois, followed by the flash back scenes. (bull in china shop etc)
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oh yeah.. dvd sales were the highest ever for a fox show, so its was uncancelled and put back in the prime time slot just before 24 in the states.[/quote:843f597db6]great to hear… my Family Guy DVD boxed set is one of my prized possessions
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The Tick was a good show …….SPOON
love family guy thought, now just bring back futurama and space: above and beyond
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Yeah I meant instinct, I knew what I meant, many dont though… :shock:
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*applause*
very good Tony.
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*applause*
very good Tony.[/quote:d84d23e85f]high praise indeed, Damien
from your experience with Dare, is there anything you’d change/omit/add to in what I’ve written above?
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*cough* DamiAn *cough*
You mention the high praise for using music and animation. I think thats a tough call for teams. I think you’re right about how effective it is, but actually doing it what with other uni work is tough.
I think 2 people emailed me asking for advice this year, and one of them got through, so i must have said something right to them :)
I think the emphasis is as much about the game idea as about the team; are they capable, are they being realistic, do they look like they gel ( splitting the presentation so everyone speaks helps here ).
Don’t claim anything that isn’t obviously true as you said, shows bad research.
Oh, just thought of a biggy actually. I recommend that you bring along something to give the panel, presentation with lots of art ( as well as your power-point/flash presentation ). Make sure you bring along enough for everyone. Once everything is finished, the panel will have seen X number of teams and remembering every detail of all of them is not going to be easy. If they have something to refer back to, it really going to help. Even subconsciouly….if they’ve got a booklet on the table and you’re logo is catching they’re eye, they’ll remember things.I recommend practicing your presentation too. We did and we found we were over-running our time by about 10 minutes and were able to cut it down to our alloted time and be able to say everything we wanted to say.
Although in saying that, our end of competition presentation was fly by the seat of your pants stuff, and somehow that worked better for us at the time. Even managed to get a few jokes in to break the ice :) (even asked the panel for a job! ) -
Excellent guide, Tony. Hopefully I’ll be able to make some use of it next year if the event doesn’t clash with my exams.. oh, and if I can find a team!
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Not an awful lot to tell the truth. Some concept art of our main characters and then lots of pics pulled from the web to show off the style we wanted in the game but hadn’t produced ourselves at the time. Having a single artist really hampered us. We did produce a pretty booklet though :)
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*cough* DamiAn *cough*[/quote:feb3746189]sorry!
You mention the high praise for using music and animation. I think thats a tough call for teams. I think you’re right about how effective it is, but actually doing it what with other uni work is tough. [/quote:feb3746189]Understood…but in a way that’s my whole point – those who make the time and put in the extra work succeed. Dare sets out to mimic the real-world situation, and by and large they succeed.
The winning team (and one of the runners up) in the NI heat this year came to the interviews with part of their pre-production done. This meant they had prototypes to show, character art, music, level layouts, etc. The more work you put in to the presentation the more prepared and seriously motivated you look. The fact is, if you wait until seeing if you’re going to Abertay or not BEFORE you start your prep work, you’ll have less to show at the interview
In short, it’s like anything else – those who can, do – those who can’t moan about not having enough time. Harsh, but true
I think the emphasis is as much about the game idea as about the team; are they capable, are they being realistic, do they look like they gel ( splitting the presentation so everyone speaks helps here )[/quote:feb3746189]do you mean to say: “it’s as much about the team as it is about the game”? If so, that’s what I was saying – which I think you’re agreeing with. I’m basically just sayong don’t concentrate all your energies on a great game idea and forget about who has to make it
You’re quite right about practicing your presentation and bringing along something to leave behind too.
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Not an awful lot to tell the truth. Some concept art of our main characters and then lots of pics pulled from the web to show off the style we wanted in the game but hadn’t produced ourselves at the time. [/quote:bca7bf4723]I didn’t know that about you guys, DamiAn, I’m impressed.
By showing some inititative and pulling pics off the web (also what we at Torc do before we’ve got our concept art together, and even after in some cases) you’ve a huge jump start in communicating your ideas and you haven’t had to spend time and money doing your own. You could have found 10 – 12 good images from the Web in the time you’ve drawn your own version it… and the result would have been the same. I’ve no doubt that the judges at your interview took that kind if resourcefulness into account when making their decision about which team would make the best go of it. I know I would have
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The music was mainly used in the presentation beccause our game is mainly focus around music, and we thought It was a good idea to include this as it will be an important part of the game. It seemed a good idea to give an example of one of the biggest aspects of our game. As far as the animation was concerned again, seems a good idea to use it with the music to show we have animation skills as a lot of animation is going to be needed in the game.
As far as the time it takes to put it all together I think if your serious about it you will make the time.
Anyway…….Looking forward to seeing all the other games in the final, good luck to everyone
I have started work on our website, not much on there at the mo, but soon we shall have some concept art and info on our game.
http://www.silvertonguesoftware.co.uk -
just on that website – nice job, btw, ‘IDGA’ link should read ‘IGDA’
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heres something to inspire the DARE bunch, started reading a book called “Game Coding Complete” and theres a great quote in the starting chapter. Sums up why we all like game development :)
Why bother? Looking at this description of the computer game industry is making that boring job at American General Life Insurance look pretty good. There are plenty of good things, but there’s one that beats them all: After all the work, lost weekends, and screaming matches with producers and testers, your game finally appears on the retail shelves somewhere. A few weeks after it ships, you start looking. You make excuses to go to Wal-Mart, Circuit City, and Best Buy and wander the software section. Eventually you see it. Your game. In a box. On the shelf. Shrink-wrapped!
There’s nothing like it. As you hold it in your hands someone walks up to you and says, “Hey, I was thinking of buying that game. Is it any good?” You smile and hand him the box, “Yeah, it’s damn good.”
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lol..oh yeah, never noticed that one. :shock: Thanks for noticing, Oh yeah I put a Torc link on too.
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came to the interviews with part of their pre-production done. This meant they had prototypes to show[/quote:b9970a90fc]
Really don’t know if I agree with this. I thought the competition was about building a game prototype within the alotted time, not going in with half it already done…makes gauging it harder as not all teams will start at the same stage of development…We went in there and said this is our project, this is our team. What have we got ? Some concept art and a very very basic engine…it currently draws stuff, plays sounds and thats about it, anything fancy, we need to write and we will. After the interview we made a start on the level editor and were still playing with it up to about week 4. Its a 10 week competition to show what yo can do in a short period of time not a 9 month project where you happen to spend 10 weeks of it in Scotland…it feels like an integral part of Dare is being lost with all this pre-production. Sure, it shows desire, but I can’t help feeling its killing something else…
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heres something to inspire the DARE bunch, started reading a book called “Game Coding Complete” and theres a great quote in the starting chapter. Sums up why we all like game development :)
Why bother? Looking at this description of the computer game industry is making that boring job at American General Life Insurance look pretty good. There are plenty of good things, but there’s one that beats them all: After all the work, lost weekends, and screaming matches with producers and testers, your game finally appears on the retail shelves somewhere. A few weeks after it ships, you start looking. You make excuses to go to Wal-Mart, Circuit City, and Best Buy and wander the software section. Eventually you see it. Your game. In a box. On the shelf. Shrink-wrapped!
There’s nothing like it. As you hold it in your hands someone walks up to you and says, “Hey, I was thinking of buying that game. Is it any good?” You smile and hand him the box, “Yeah, it’s damn good.”[/quote:abea8783ed]yeah, great quote. and a great book too
although that bit about “screaming matches with producers and testers” has me worried!! In fact, feck it, I’m off to Tescos to pack bags for a living!
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came to the interviews with part of their pre-production done. This meant they had prototypes to show[/quote:b985afb006]
Really don’t know if I agree with this. I thought the competition was about building a game prototype within the alotted time, not going in with half it already done…makes gauging it harder as not all teams will start at the same stage of development…We went in there and said this is our project, this is our team. What have we got ? Some concept art and a very very basic engine…it currently draws stuff, plays sounds and thats about it, anything fancy, we need to write and we will. After the interview we made a start on the level editor and were still playing with it up to about week 4. Its a 10 week competition to show what yo can do in a short period of time not a 9 month project where you happen to spend 10 weeks of it in Scotland…it feels like an integral part of Dare is being lost with all this pre-production. Sure, it shows desire, but I can’t help feeling its killing something else…[/quote:b985afb006]in fairness, it was only a level grey map, but I take your point Damien
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The grey map we produced for the interview was to show how we could import things from Max in to the engine we are using, and also to describe the layout of the main “central hub” level. This piece was manly used so the panel had a good idea of what we were talking about as regards to the technology and how we were going to use it. The map we produced probably wont even be used during development.
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Something at that level yes, but you hear stories of people trying to enter with stuff that theyve working on for several months. Maybe I’m just a purist.
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By the way, is this the longest thread….have we surpassed some of Dave’s epic threads.
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Yeah I can understand where you are coming from on that one though.
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I really don’t get this so-called purist argument. Yes I understand that you mean to keep the work for the competition within the 10 weeks, I can’t understand how that makes any sense to you.
The interviews are completed now, does any one really think they expect the regional winners to sit on their games until June? Thats a further (depending on your region) 7 or 8 weeks deveopment time isn’t it?
And no, the exams argument doesn’t hold water. Anyone in my college is finished by now, many others will be within a week or 2. Besides up to 2 of your team could be graduates they could be working away.
And all of this assumes that the work you did for the presentation doesn’t apply to the project itself. If you have the sense to make sure one leads into the other then you have what, 7 months?
I’ve said it before, the competition is new, its going to change. If at the end of the day you project gets passed over because you did the ‘pure’ 10 weeks, while other projects have 20 weeks to a year of development behind them, then dust yourself off, get another idea, and get to work the week you get back from abertay.
If the rules change to disallow prep, then I think the competition will suffer. We have so many games courses approaching their first graduating classes, the competition, I think, should be open to those students submitting their final year projects.
Prehaps the amount of preparation time could be listed in the submission, if the judges actually think that is a factor (pro or con) then they could consider it. Otherwise kudos to the teams that can manage their schedules to get the work done in advance, and best of luck to all entrants regardless.
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Yeah that was supposed to come across as a good luck, get up and go, onwards to victory, motivational tone rather than rant rant rant.
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Well said. :D
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gets my vote
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My reasoning on keeping it within 10 weeks is that you can actually gauge the teams accuratelly against each other. If you are gauging one team with 10 weeks work, one with 6 months and one with 12 months, the 12 months one is probably going to win. There has to be some sort of regulation. You apply one year, don’t get in, apply next year with a year’s worth of stuff done and get in, you surely have an advantage, no??
I think if you were in Scotland, you’d be finished by the end of this month, so I’d expect you have some time off after exams and then maybe have 2 weeks to get ready for the competition. (thats what we did)
The rules were set up with Scotland in mind and so thats why you have exam and interview conflicts cos it doesn’t happen over there and as a consequence you have more time on your hands now. I guess if I was in your situation, yes, I’d be working on it now. Couple of weeks isn’t what I’m talking about though, its the several month thing…And all of this assumes that the work you did for the presentation doesn’t apply to the project itself. If you have the sense to make sure one leads into the other then you have what, 7 months?[/quote:5dbf178645]
Surely realisticly you’re going to be swamped with college work and you’re not going to be working flat out on this and most of what you’ll be doing with be design and research. You have time to be doing actual development during this time? And working on it constantly… ?If at the end of the day you project gets passed over because you did the ‘pure’ 10 weeks, while other projects have 20 weeks to a year of development behind them, then dust yourself off, get another idea, and get to work the week you get back from abertay.[/quote:5dbf178645]
10 weeks route worked for me. :)If the rules change to disallow prep, then I think the competition will suffer. We have so many games courses approaching their first graduating classes, the competition, I think, should be open to those students submitting their final year projects.[/quote:5dbf178645]
Don’t you think that if thats what was intended, Abertay would have incorporated that kind of ethos into their course? Considering it was the Head of the Comp Games department that came up with the idea for Dare and he never incorporated it, the intention is that its not part of a uni course, it allows people NOT on a games tech course to enter on a par. Most teams from scotland come from Abertay, but its cuttently a huge thing to try and change that, they want bigger support from other unis and that means getting submissions from students on non-games courses.Basically my main point is, as I’ve just clarified to myself while typing is that the competition is supposed to encourage people to do game dev, whether they’re doing a course in it or not, and allowing the amount of prep time that I’ve heard people talk about is going to have a damaging effect on that.
*sorry for rambling*
Extra prep time gives better results but harder to judge equally and will restrict entrants. -
i agree with omen, but since there is no rule against getting a head start i would have done some work before the 10 weeks.
one problem we had was time, we found out about the contest very late and most of our team were final years who all had course work in for around time as the interview (2 of our team had coursework in for the same day as the interview). now i don’t really dame the contest for this, we were just unlucky to learn of the contest so late, (only i would have had liked the interviews to have been earlier, before coursework and exam times and finding out only 1 month before the contest starts that you in, is not a lot of time)
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It depends on what you see as the main goal of the competition. Is it to demonstrate a teams game making ability(as in teamwork, time management, skills, etc.) or to demonstrate a good game(whether its fully functional, a prototype, or somewhere in between)
If its the latter then take all the time you want at it.
If its the former then any idea of a level playing field is gone as soon as you are allowed to use your own concept idea. Many ideas are going to be harder to implement from the get go. They’ll either work really well, or they won’t work at all. Whereas some games, especially those with many bases covered by middleware, will get some level of functionality, almost regardless of the team (assuming you do something during the 10 weeks).
If you want a level playing field that demonstrates team ability, use the interview step as merely a portfolio demonstration. Pick the best teams from the regions, and then on day one they get a sealed envelope with the design they must work on.
Its a level playing field, but it doesn’t sound very appealing.
As for non-games courses applying, of course they have the time. Many programmers make some sort of game as a project, they could kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Marketing, animation, 2d art, they could all incorporate elements of their submissions into their course work.
Games students made a decision to specialise rather than generalise. In general they know what they want to be doing with their careers (at least in some broad sense). If they can integrate dare into their college work and gain an advantage then well done to them. Dare is a platform into the industry, if its not going to reward students who are committed to that field, then who will?
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I disagree.
You give them a design of a car game and suddenly you have coders knowing nothing about car physics are screwed, animaters are barely needed. The point of it is you get to create YOUR idea with YOUR team. Your team should have the skillset to handle the tasks that will become apparent based on YOUR design. Its not about who does the best game. Its about who did the best development in the time frame. You could create minesweeper in about a week, make it look really pretty. Its a great game, but there’s not much work to it….
Well…bet game does help on the marketability side of things of course :) -
If you want a level playing field that demonstrates team ability, use the interview step as merely a portfolio demonstration. Pick the best teams from the regions, and then on day one they get a sealed envelope with the design they must work on.
[/quote:7588b6acc5]
yeah i wouldnt agree with that one. why should it be a level playing field? it isnt in industry. One idea is always better than the other. An idea which stands out above the rest.
Why should everyone be limited to one universal idea, and be limited in their creational design. Its not a weekly programming assignment or third year project to prove your abilities at art and programming, where you have 50-60 students going off implementing the same thing. Firstly, you wouldnt be entering Dare if you didnt think you had the skills.
Its a competition to show that you can take an idea which “ye” developed and see it through from concept to implementation. At the end of the day thats what a publisher wants to see in its developer portofolio. That you can talk the talk and walk the walk..but thats just my take on it.
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First off, in case it isn’t clear I don’t agree with the one concept for all idea either.
And secondly it would be up to the competition hosts to supply a concept that would challenge all areas of game design.
What I’m trying to say is any competition is an artificial situation anyway. Its unlikely that you will ever be in such circumstances anywhere else, ever again.
The more rules you apply the more artificial the situation gets, the less relevant to the industry it becomes.
One thing that got a fair bit of time at the Dare open day in the digital hub, was what could be done with the prototype(or indeed any of its assets) at the end of the competition. It seemed to be assumed that one of the aims of the competition was for the teams to end up with a marketable entity.
Since the end of the competition means the end of access to the plethora of development resources within it, surely the idea is to have as close to completed a game as you can. Would a publisher prefer to see a proposal with 10 weeks work done, or more?
I think our difference in opinions here is the role of Dar to be Digital. Constraining the development to 10 weeks seems to be an attitude supporting competition for competition’s sake. Whereas doing as much as you can for as long as you can is an attitude supporting the idea of a career stepping stone.
I don’t want trophies, certificates or pennants. If I enter Dare, it will be to advirtise my abilities as a designer, and I’ll do it to the best of my ability, which will mean using every available moment.
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I’d agree with you, Nifty – the more time spent the better as a career stepping stone and intro to the industry would be more worthwhile.
but as you say – that’s for the Abertay folks to sort out
I think Omen’s point is that the crieria/rules need to be made clear at the outset
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You of course are the best man to ask. Do you know of any mentions of what preparatory work you can and can not bring with you to Abertay?
And are there any rules excluding the resubmission of a failed candidate from a previous year, whether by candidate I mean concept, entire teams or individual team members or any other combinations?
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Yeah, I see your point nifty…i guess I am looking at it as competition rather than looking to the future which is what its all about…winners will be offer a place in the Abertay incubator unit to pursue the idea.
I dunno, it is a tricky one, and one I think needs looking into.As for preparitary work…i don’t think there currently is any restriction on it. Only restriction is that its your work or you have a licence to use a resource.
I think the only rule with regards to re-applying is that if you succeeded in getting through the interview stage, you may not apply again.
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I think the only rule with regards to re-applying is that if you succeeded in getting through the interview stage, you may not apply again.[/quote:9d8860cddf]
we got to the interview stage (but then all team in N.I. did) and we where told by Jane (i think it was jane) that if we where not successful to try again next year.
from what i understand the team that get to the contest (in scotland) can not apply again
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Yup thats correct, sorry if I was unclear.
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no my mistake
if you succeeded in getting through the interview stage[/quote:191e5fb2e7]
i read it as
if you succeeded in getting to the interview stage[/quote:191e5fb2e7]
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You of course are the best man to ask. Do you know of any mentions of what preparatory work you can and can not bring with you to Abertay?
And are there any rules excluding the resubmission of a failed candidate from a previous year, whether by candidate I mean concept, entire teams or individual team members or any other combinations?[/quote:82e44594ea]Omen is quite right on both the preparatory work (no restrictions for interviews or the 10 weeks in Abertay itself as far as i can tell) and the resubmission (anyone who DOESN’T make it to Abertay can re-apply)
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Just to be clear, if you are ever on any team that makes it to Abertay you can not re-enter. Or that team can not re-enter?
And I can’t think of a circumstance where this could happen but, is the concept barred from re-entry (by another team) as well?
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Just to be clear, if you are ever on any team that makes it to Abertay you can not re-enter[/quote:92d92ea972]
Correct. Couple of people that did it my year wanted to did it again with a different , but weren’t allowed. -
Just to be clear, if you are ever on any team that makes it to Abertay you can not re-enter. Or that team can not re-enter?
And I can’t think of a circumstance where this could happen but, is the concept barred from re-entry (by another team) as well?[/quote:67f9a38364]
i would say concept probably isnt barred, although if it didnt cut it the previous time, something needs to be changed. so idea isnt the same then ;) but i dont know?
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just to let you know our site for silvertongue is about 70% complete now, there is some concept art work in there now, but still have to post the story up, only projects / news / forum work so far.
We will be using this site and the forum to keep a diary also of our 10 weeks at Dare to keep you all informed.
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website seems to be down
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Shes there alright…thats some nice concept art, I’m intrested to see how it will port to the Reality Engine.
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yeah i wouldnt agree with that one. why should it be a level playing field? it isnt in industry.
[/quote:85fb208042]I wouldn’t agree with that, every team has the same opportunities as everyone else. I know business isn’t fair in one sense of the word but in some ways it is, every business can cheat in the same was.
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I wouldn’t agree with that, every team has the same opportunities as everyone else. I know business isn’t fair in one sense of the word but in some ways it is, every business can cheat in the same was.[/quote:f3a0cfcfa4]
? not sure what your getting at.
what im saying is in reponse to the “idea” of giving the teams a similar project is its going to limit their creativity “they have a great idea for an RPG” but the judges want another incarnation of a driving game. Thus what would be the point in this. Also teams arent fair, some teams have more talent,motivation than others, and by limiting it to a i.e. driving game, only some of their talents will be shown. like omen said, if you nothing about cars how can you do that title. now thats not a very fair playing field. i think the way it is now, allows designers to create games they want to play (and can build) and games which we want to play, otherwise you dont get through the interview. but thats just my take..
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I was commenting on the industry in general. Yeah agree with what you’re saying.
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Should be working ok now, I think it was down as I was messing around with the name servers yesterday
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still not working for me
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nah still broke for me.
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Working for me….
Some really nice character designs. Nice engine as well. Hope you guys do well.
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this is what i get
Not Found
The requested URL /SilverTongue/Index.html was not found on this server.Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
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Strange how some can see it and some cant. My brother has this problem and he solved it by clearing his internet cache as the error you report is where the old link was, so the cache is probabably pointer there.
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i cleared the cache in both iexplorer and firefox, didnt make a difference. probably just my connection or something.
who’s your site host? -
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Are you guys using this engine in Dare? Should give you a nice advantage
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how will that give them an advantage, i presume when they discount they mean knock a ten grand off it.. surely not going to give it away free are they?
isnt unreal 2 engine license like $100,000-$300,000 , i thought i read that quoted somewhere, maybe it was something else. sounds a little large right?presumably they have a non-commerical license, but i cant see that being too cheap.
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Are you guys using this engine in Dare? Should give you a nice advantage[/quote:0a20617129]
I assumed they are/were as it’s said there team uses it on the site. If they are maybe they’ve recieved insider information about the engines future??
I’ve never heard of a non commerical licence for the Unreal engine….
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I assumed they are/were as it’s said there team uses it on the site. If they are maybe they’ve recieved insider information about the engines future??
I’ve never heard of a non commerical licence for the Unreal engine….[/quote:5798e1367a]
doubt they knew(coz appear reality didnt air the fact either), seeing as reality engine released a new extension build may 4th, why would they bother if they knew they were winding down. sounds like people in reality might not have even known. epic kept it quite.
as for non-commerical, if you look on unreal website they mention special cases which they offer licenses, to use the runtime.
its all here
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/flash/licensing/terms.shtml -
actually, they did know… as did we. NWIFHE had prior agreeements with AS ahead of the Epic deal
…and as for using it in Dare, they submitted it as there engine of choice for the interviews so there’s no reason why not. It gives them a headstart in terms of tools and run-time components, allowing them to focus on creating the assets and gameplay but it doesn’t give them a headstart in terms of team, workflow, process, etc.
The judges at the interviews pointed out to more than one team that use of any engine, no matter how good and/or feature-rich, doesn’t doesn;t help with the issues listed above and doesn;’ mean YOUR game will look as good as theirs. Afterall, an engine is simply a rendering & lighting paradgim with a set of tools. The quality of the assets depends on talent – not tools
actually reminds me of something else from the Dare judging… some of the teams wanted to use Renderware as their engine. Renderware is a set of low level components for multi-platform development. It is not a complete out-of-the-box solution, and as such will require extensive work ahead of using it for creating a game even simply for the PC platform. Given the narrow timeframe involved, if you don’t have access to and familairity with an engine & toolset already, then consider using something llike Torque or GameMaker
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btw tony just wondering, when you asked at the end of the interview “whats you fav game?” did that have anything to do with the judging or was it just you own interest?
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actually, they did know… as did we. NWIFHE had prior agreeements with AS ahead of the Epic deal
[/quote:a065c6d7a4]cool. always nice to be on the inside. One the reasons i want into games.
knowing that your creating a killer title for next-gen which no one will know about until 2 years time. Similar thing happened to a buddy of mine at RARE last year, when he first started their he was put on Perfect Dark Zero, but id ask “so what you working on their”. Oh im doing some development on an xbox title. The pup didnt tell me it was that game!
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how will that give them an advantage, i presume when they discount they mean knock a ten grand off it.. surely not going to give it away free are they? [/quote:0c701d10f1]
Eh??
Using a good engine and being familiar with it is always going to be an advantage. Some people don’t get their engines until start of competition and they have lots of problems dealing with it.
As Tony said, familiarity is the key really. A fantatic engine is useless if you don’t know how to use it.
The nice rendering the engine will give them will always be a bonus ( assuming the art-work complements it of course ). -
i think he mean that because Epic is dumping the Reality engine, they can’t use the Reality engine, and they can’t afford the unreal engine… thats what i thought
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We have no advantage what so ever, the course only recieved the engine about 2 months ago, and we have had no lessons on it yet as the tutors are still working out how to use it themselves, all we can really do at the mo is import meshes from Max, which anyone can learn to do in five minutes.
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i think he mean that because Epic is dumping the Reality engine, they can’t use the Reality engine, and they can’t afford the unreal engine… thats what i thought[/quote:14427eaec0]
See the thread about the reality engine in this section for a clearer picture on the reality engine and its current situation
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Are you guys using this engine in Dare? Should give you a nice advantage[/quote:4c92a51108]
the tools provided in the engine are an advantage, but at the same time, the more options and creative tools you have, the more you will want to produce. our concept for the dare competition is quite vast, which will more than likly be cut down a little in size now in the preparations for the event. but at the end of the day, we wont have an engine that will create everything for us. it will be very different say from an entry creating a flash game, or someone creating their own engine for use, but the work ethic will be the same. late nights, countless days without sleep, 5am rendering and programming, etc etc. im sure people will disagree with me abot this, :( but i have too many assignments to do, so i cant banter on!
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Well said, everyone is each team is going to have more / less experience at something than someone else. People have been using Max more than us, we have only been using it for less than a year, so that gives them an advantage and so on…..
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I was going to stay out of this one, but just wanted to put my oar in and thank robbie for standing up for us.
Omen I know you didn’t mean ADVANTAGE advantage , but it hit a raw nerve because myself and one other team mate in particular are moving heaven and earth to get there (I’m a married woman with a little boy), so didn’t feel particularly advantaged!
It is an advantage to have an engine of the calibre of Reality, but if the concept and our delivery as a team don’t stand up it won’t make any difference.
On a side note, it’s nice of Robbie to credit me with the concept idea, and it’s partly true, but the great thing about it is that every member of the team has contributed something to it and made it what it is now. We wouldn’t have made it this far without any one of us.
We’ll be doing our best in Scotland to show what Northern Ireland can do and hope to make Robbie proud, his support and that of the college has been invaluable in getting us this far.
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I apologise if I hit a nerve. Obviously if the team isn’t up to scratch the greatest engine isn’t going to be worth squat.
As I said, at theh time I thought you guys had a good knowledge of the engine from college and being able to use a good engine would be a big plus going into the competition.You’re going to be going up against people who’ve being doing games in uni for 4 years and will probably be bringing in engines that they’ve written themselves and have intimate knowledge of. They have that advantage. I’d be looking at have every advantage possible going into the competition. Don’t take it as a criticism in that, you’ve an advantage therefore you should win. I’m not saying anything of the sort. I’m saying you’re going in with something rather than nothing.
Everyone going into the competition will have there own advantages in one way or another…
I wish you luck, cos by god you’re going to need it. Its good to see a woman involved with the team too and in charge too. As I’ve said before, having been there and done that, if I can offer any advice, doesn’t hesitate to contact me.
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Thanks Omen, and appreciate the offer of advice. We are going to be up against some pretty stiff competition, all of which have their own strengths and weaknesses. Let’s just hope we can give them a good run for their money!
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btw tony just wondering, when you asked at the end of the interview “whats you fav game?” did that have anything to do with the judging or was it just you own interest?[/quote:e80feb351d]if you want to mail/PM me offline Patrick I’ll tell you why
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thanks tony, i sent you a pm
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I would not say we were “not up to scratch” otherwise I dont think we would have won. We have three strong coders in are group that would have no problem picking up the scripting once we start to learn to it.
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Oh lord….i didn’t say you weren’t “up to scratch”. I said IF a team wasn’t, then the engine wouldn’t be as useful. I’m not criticising, stop reading hidden meaning into my posts!
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anyways, lets put all that misunderstanding behind us. cheers damian for all your help and comments. :)
can i ask, did your team have a weekly diary of events for your dare experience?? im really looking forward to meeting all the other teams, staff and industry folk. :D
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can i ask, did your team have a weekly diary of events for your dare experience??[/quote:9758bd6c0c]
Just the weekly video diary that every year does. There was no real external interest back in my time, so didn’t do a blog.If nothing else comes out of this thread, we got several non-posters on to the boards :)
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lol, yea :) quite a long thread!! cant wait to get to scotland now. :D bit crazy though, we are all rushing to get our course work, and course project finished, so we can start another one!! hope to make the best out of dare, its gona be a good experience.
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anyone know when the teams start in Scotland or have they started already?
Aphra.[/quote:fea05773ab]
Pretty sure they start on Monday, Aphra. :) -
yea, we definitly start on monday! :D :shock: :D
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go SilverTongue!!
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should get posting now and then. we will keep updating our main site with updates, WIP’s and any other info, but il make sure to get posting here also with updates.
thanks tony! :D
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If you start posting lots, there’s something wrong. You should have time to post :)
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:P dont worry, we will be busy!!
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Ill be taking 5 mintues at the end of each day to write a little paragraph for our diary section on our site to keep every updated with the progress (maybe a few screenshots) and let you all know what the experience is like. Oh yeah, thanks Tony for coming in and talking to us, was a great help. You’ll be rewarded in gamers heaven.
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Remember what Vince Lombardi said; If you lose, you’re out of the family![/quote:bd78d02e1d]
Never truer words shall be spoken :lol:
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Good luck guys.
Tell Jackie I said hi.
I’ll even come up if she invites me. -
Best of luck all! ;)
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thats guys for all the support.
Omen: if you can, try and make it over for the awards at the end of the year, and if ur nice to us, we might just let you play our game! :D
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Awards at the end of the competition is invite only. :(
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Is it ? Bummer. I presume the teams family is invited ?
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Im sure they would rosdahale, cant wait to read up about your progress on the site.
Best of Luck Silvertongue.
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Thanks Pete, see you when we get back.
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before yous fly out tomorrow just wanna wish you guys all the best in scotland. yous will be great.
good luck!!
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I’m sure you’ll do great guys. Work hard and have fun. Don’t forget to keep us updated. :wink:
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Unless things have changed, its industry people invite only. I assumed it was family too but afraid its not.
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We were asked if there were specific companies we’d like to invite, so you might be able to get invites for industry people.
I’m sure you’ll be able to swindle one with your connections Aphra :)
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We were asked if there were specific companies we’d like to invite, so you might be able to get invites for industry people.
[/quote:2f1107a762]How about inviting the head of Sony, Xbox and Nintendo… ;)
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Aye best of luck to Team Doom and Silvertongue. :D
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