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Im going to make a list here of some games courses currently available in Ireland. (I advise moderators to make it a sticky thread).
Currently there are two courses available in in Ireland at Ballyfermot College of Further Eductation (BCFE)
[list:ebb8ecb022]
[*:ebb8ecb022]LUDO: this is a one year course that covers the basic concepts of computer game design and is awarded by FETAC
[*:ebb8ecb022]CGHND: Higher National Diploma in Computer Games Design. This is a two year course covering all aspects of computer games developments and design.
[/list:u:ebb8ecb022]Take a look at the BCFE website for more information.
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Hello!
For a more complete list of games related courses, check out the courses section, http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/resources/courses/
If you have information on a courses that doesn’t appear in our courses database then please e-mail us (http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/contact/) with details.
Paul
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If you would like to go abroad, I am currently studying in Dundee. They have a very good course in University of Abertay Dundee call Computer Games Technology. There is a BSc and a PgDip/MSc course. Involves learning about the industry and PC and console development.
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Hi all,
Someone-mailed me from the MSc in Abertay and told me they have ten students of which six are Irish! I wonder how many more Irish people are over training in the UK.
The question then arises – should we have a games specific degree course here in Ireland?
Some might argue we would only be training people to go abroad to work. Another viewpoint is that having a degree course here would help to stimulate the industry.
What does anyone think?
Aphra.
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The course in Abertay is pretty respected in games community. There are 6 Irish on the course. Others include an American, an Icelandic, a Scot and a Suranamese (?), so it is obviously recognised outside of the UK.
Earlier this year we had someone from Canada over here checking out the course and next year they are putting up a twinned course in a university in Canada doing almost exactly this course.
I recently saw an article on another course run in Liverpool, but I just scanned it, so don’t know much about it.If there was such a course in Ireland, I may have looked into it. If an irish university were to try link with Abertay, I think they would help out as a big emphasis here is to try expand the industry.
My thoughts are that no-one starts a games company in Ireland because no-one thinks of it as a games country. With a games course, yes, the graduates will go abroad at first, but with the experience, surely some will come home and try start there own businesses.
D.
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Thanks Omen for that. I know one of the present Ballyfermot crew is hoping to head off to Abertay next year. So links may be developing organically already.
In the absence of such courses in Ireland take a look at what a student society can do. The University of Texas at Austin has as a very active student-run club called EGaDS (Electronic Game Developers Society). Have a look at their site.
In addition the IDGA has been developing curriculum guidelines for game development and game studies courses.
See http://www.igda.org/academia/curriculum_framework.phpAphra.
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All of these courses are based on getting in off the Leaving Cert.
does anybody know of any private courses that would help to either get on to one of these or which would be a good introduction before going into college.I myself do not have the relevant leaving cert qualifications to get onto most of these and have done some FAS courses which is a big help but not very specific towards games. i am looking for 3D & 2D Modeling , Flash, DirectX, OpenGL.
are there any private courses that cover these?Thanks
Trebor -
Wouldn’t one of the IT’s be more appropriate for it though, as opposed to a university. Even having a dedicated course in one of the smaller courses may be an idea.
As for private courses, I haven’t been made aware of any for as long as I was running Irish Player, and we were asking all the time as we were constantly getting queries about how people could get involved in development, and this is part of the reason why I’ve chosen to go the business end as I can hopefully get experience within the industry without having to move abroad.
Aphra, what about contacting the IT’s about doing presentations? Surely all the IT societies in colleges would be interested, as I know DIT Kevin St. has a big gaming society.
Finally, when I was at Higher Options back when I was doing my own leaving cert, there were a number of 3rd levels offering computer design courses. Abartay was the one which caught my eye, but I think there were some others in Portsmouth or somewhere else down in the South of England, as well as one or two in Wales.
With the amount of people who are interested in getting involved in development, how would you guys feel about getting a day-long event together, like what First Tuesday do with a small co ver charge, a couple of presentations and speakers and the like. Surely if you could get colleges to tell IT students about it, as well as bringing on those seriously interested from leaving cert you could invite some of the education authorities along and show them that there is an interest among both school leavers and students currently studying.
Just my thoughts anyway, feel free to rip them to shreds >:)
Jamie
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As you said Abertay stands out.
It is highly regarded in the UK, especially Scotland. I know its not in Ireland, but really, its not far away.
I’m coming to the end of the course now and from the year I’ve spent here, I’m coming out of it with 2 game demos that I’ve worked on, one a sort of platform based thing that was pulled together in an all-nighter and the other that is a sort of pod-racer type game that will be finished tonight, please god let it be tonight!
Also I know how to write a design doc. This may sound trivial, but its probably one of the most important things if you intend to go to a publisher/developer with your idea. If you can’t write it right, they’re just not going to read it.
These things combined have given me the opportunity to get in to the Dare To Be Digital competition that is also run in Abertay, allowing me and my team to begin development of our game idea and should things go well, to bring this further with the benefits that the competition offers.To some up, if you are really interested in getting into game development, I would really recommend this uni.
Damian.
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This is no formal education as such, but the quality is pretty good, and very cheap too :-)
https://www.gameinstitute.com/gi/
you even get a certificate to print out ;-)
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There are a rash of end of year shows on at the moment which people might like to view.
1. Virtual Reality MA from NCAD end of year show is taking place in the Digital Hub project office from the 13th – 21st of June.
2. National Diploma in communications (Creative Multimedia) and the BSC in Commercial Computing end of year show in the Multipurpose Centre of the Dundalk Institute of Technology – launch 11th of June and open on the 12th all day.
3. DLIATD is having its IADT exhibition, launch is on the 5th of June (invitation only) and I believe it is open for at least a week after.
Any others?
Aphra.
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While in the UK last week the most talked about courses on game design were in Abertay, Liverpool John Moores and Teeside. Anyone know anything about the latter two?
Also I see in Edge that Northumbria University has just launched an MA in Computer Game Studies – a more critical and theoretical course akin to film studies.
Now all I have to do is find a map and locate all these places…
Aphra.
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Was going to have a look at the course in Liverpool and I stumbled on this website. It has a list of courses in the UK divided into the following categories:
– Computing/engineering courses with a few games modules
– Arts/desgin/animation courses with a few games modules
– Games courses that focus on games as a vehicle to teach computing or to produce games programmers
– Games courses that focus on art/design/animation to produceartists or producers
– Others unclassifiedThere are quiet a few courses up on the site. Might be a little out of date.
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I noticed that the BSc. in Software Systems course in National College of Ireland isn’t listed. There is quite a lot of programming involved (Java in year 1 , C/C++ from year 2 onward). Apparently the course is a lot like the Comp. Applications in DCU.
Click here( http://www.ncirl.ie/Prospective/full_index.htm ) for more information.
There are also cert/diploma courses that cover V.B. and Java..
Thanks.
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hey all,
i’m thinking of applying for the MSc/PGDip in Abertay starting this sept-
(very last minute i know but anyway…)the module list isn’t exactly descriptive – in the way that it just isn’t!
its a list, but nothing about subject matter.
could one of you doing the course expland a little on the subjects/modules you do please?and also,
living costs in dundee – SAAS will most likely pay the tuition fees, but i need to know average rent p/w etc.thanks very much!
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thanks omen, preciate the info.
dcu email?
didn’t realise you were from ireland.
i’m from down limerick way.
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Yup, from Wexford, graduated from Computer Applications in DCU last year, couldn’t find a job and travelled to over here to do something with myself….was a good decision on my part.
Forgot to mention, there is also a module in the second semester where you have to fill in a proposal for the MSc, that you have to pass in order to go on to do the masters, I’ve to hand mine in my next friday….anyone have any ideas on what to do it on ????
The course is good. I would definitelly recommend that you think about doing the Dare To Be Digital competition held in the uni over the summer (7 out of the 10 in the class are doing it now). The contacts you get out of the uni and the competition are invaluable.
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FYI,
On the subject of courses there is a HNC (Higher National Certificate) in Interactive Computer Entertainment commencing in the North West Institute of Further and Higher Education (NWIFHE) in Derry on September 2003. This is a one year course for beginners covering all aspects of computer games design and development.
Darwen.
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Hey all,
Just wondering, I really want to do a games design degree and become a game programmer. I am looking at the degree in Abertay. Anyway, I am going to be doing my leaving cert in June 2004. Now, I am wondering how important is honours maths, cause just at the end of fifth year I gave it up, I couldent handle it. Now I am doing pass, and am finding it piss easy. I am very worried that I wont be able to get into a game design course now that I am doing pass, and I know I wont be able to handle honours. Do you think I need honours?
Thanks for any help!
Matt
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Hi Matt,
I was just looking at the website for Abertay the other day and it seems they have two courses, a BSC in Computer Game Technology which you would need honours maths for and a BSC in Computing (Game Development) which you don’t need honours maths for.
Check them out and see for yourself http://www.abertay-dundee.ac.uk/applicants/prospectus/index.cfm
Aphra.
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Thanks a lot. Ill check the link out now:D
Matt
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Well spoted Darwen
Believe it or not I have been trying to get this course off the ground for around 6 years. It has now received funding through Co-operation Ireland and the Peace II initiative. I have just placed advertisements in the local papers this week with the course starting on the 22nd of this month.
The official title is Higher National Certificate – Interactive Computer Entertainment. I took the word games out of the title as the funders might confuse it with having fun.
I am sending details about the course and a list of modules to Aphra tomorrow when I get back to work. But basically, this course is completely designed for game creation. Its not a course with some game content tagged on. I really believe in gaming as an industry and would hope to attract investers to Ireland – with a slight bias towards the North West.
For the 3D engine element I will be using the engine from the guys in Torc. I think Ballyfermot will also be using it. If you don’t know much about Torc you soon will.
The programme duration is one year. Hopefully I will have a degree programme as well as a feeder programme ready for next September. Did I mention that the course is free – yes I said FREE – and I can take applicants from both sides of the border – although they might have to come from one of the border counties.
I’ll keep an eye on this forum and also try to respond to any emails.
See Ya
Robbie
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Yup, from Wexford, graduated from Computer Applications in DCU last year, couldn’t find a job and travelled to over here to do something with myself….was a good decision on my part.
[/quote:20d350d378]Hey omen hows it going? I’m from Wexford aswell and am going into 4th year in CA, what part of Wexford you from?
Just wanted to ask you if you had much game prog experience going into the Abertay course? I want to go to either Abertay or Hull but havent done much game programming, just the one attempt at Jenga using OpenGL for 3rd year project. Will most likely try a game for 4th year project aswell, been thinking of a golf game maybe (lots of monkey ball 2 lately :)
better keep this post somewhere near topic, dont think anyone mentioned the course in Hull which is here
http://www2.dcs.hull.ac.uk/MScGames/and if you have about 25 grand to spare try this US course
http://www.fullsail.com/swf/index.cfm
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Here is a useful list of game related courses on the web..
http://www.trinity.edu/adelwich/games/syllabi.html
Aphra.
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Hi,
Another 4th year DCU CA student here!
I’ve been wracking my brains to try and find places to specialise in some sort of game programming, thanks for the information you have all posted!
I was just wondering if any of you tried to get into the industry straight out of college?
I’m doing a mobile phone game for my fourth year project, i did a martial arts beat ’em up for my 3rd year project, and have a few other games i’ve done myself.
they need a bit of brushing up before i send them off obviously.
would it be worth my while to send a portfolio of stuff around, say to even people like upstart or kapooki?
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> I was just wondering if any of you tried to get into the industry straight out of college?
When I finished college several years ago, I bought the Edge magazine, sent a heavily embellished CV to a few recruitment agencies ( Aardvark were the ones I used in the end ) who set me up with about 8 interviews, I got straight on a plane to London on the Tuesday for the interviews and started working for Sony on the Monday.
Most of the interviews went well ( there were a few not so good ones, I remember with fond memories one for Sensible Software! NOT ), the people liked seeing some game development experience ( your martial arts game for example ), and a lot of enthusiasm.
With Torc, Kapooki and others potentially ramping up development over here in the near future, it would be worth sending your CV in to them and hoping that they have a position available.
If not, heading off to England / Scotland for a few years, and returning when the industry has more job openings over here, would be a definite possibility. You might end up working on anything, from the joypad input code for the interface to the game, to the AI for the crazy end of level boss, but your foot’ll be in the door. The UK industry has had a few knocks recently, but around London is your best bet.
Best of luck anyways!
MalBTW do you have a URL showing any of your work?
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Thanks for the information, i’ll certainly start polishing the old CV up soon!
Just have to learn to manage my time a bit better, some projects in college are starting to take a deathly grip!
As for my website, I am currently putting my site together, its been sitting on my HD all summer long, between work and the amount of projects i’ve gotten i have not had time to put up a site showing some of my work.
But i will put it up soon, and would welcome comments and suggestions about games.
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Trying to get straight into the industry at the current time does pose a few problems. A need to know your employees will be able to handle the job is essential now and its a tough sell to prove this fact.
One of the common questions I’ve encountered in interviews recently is, “Do you have experience with programming for a console?” I don’t know about other uni’s but Abertay is now teaching PS2 on a Linux Dev Kit. If you know the right people, you might even get access to the Gamecube dev kits.
Also, I think that when a company can see that you attended a university course dedicated to games shows more of a committment to the cause than doing a general computing course.Having said that, having strong C/C++, maths and physics skills and lots of enthusiam should be enough to get you into a company i think.
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Hi there,
For those who are interested, the Ludo course classes are going to be held in Arts block Ballyfermot and not in Dame street from next week onwards. In arts block for a while, waiting for new building to be completed. With new machines…:cool: -
we have just posted news on a once off game design workshop with Ernest Adams which will be held on the 9th of January in Dublin.
This event is being organised by EI in association with gamedevelopers.ie and IGDA Ireland and is aimed at those already working in the industry and academics teaching game and 3D design.
See the news section of the site for info on how to book.
Registration is free but please book by this Friday..
Aphra.
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Keep an eye out for new courses in Game Programming and Design in Dundalk IT & Carlow IT which are currently going through the accreditation process. If they are successful we will review them for inclusion on our list of relevant courses…
They both hope to take in students this Autumn if successful..
Aphra.
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Magee campus of UU in Derry is starting a games development course for next year.
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Hi folks,
I lecture and research computer games at the University of Ulster and I’m based on the Coleriane Campus. I’ve been teaching computer games there for a couple of years now and based on the popularity of the subject we are now expanding the games content of our degree significantly.Check the details here:
http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/resources/courses/index.php?article_number=14It is unlikely that there will be a new degree starting on any of the campuses of the university of Ulster in 2004 but there are plans in the pipeline for the introduction of new computer game degree courses at both Coleraine and Magee from September 2005 (we are in the middle of an internal review process for this). Those enrolling on the Computing degree in 2004 may be able to switch to the 2nd year of the games degree in 2005 (certainly this is our plan at Coleraine).
Hope this is helpful. Contact me if you would like further information.
Darryl
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Hi Aphra,
My games modules have typically been structured so that there are 3 questions on design and 3 on programming topics in the module exam. The emphasis is however on building real games – there are elements of art work (e.g. sprites and models), sound (effects and background music), and designing games in this process, but the focus for students is in programming games (basic 2D and 3D game engine stuff) with tools such as C++ and DirectX. Coursework on the games modules are typically undertaken in teams so that each member of the team may specialise in a different area during their game design and development (e.g. art, sound, AI, physics etc.).
Our computing degree at Coleriane is Software Engineering based which has a fair bit of coverage on software and system design.
For those interested in a more “art and design” based course, there are a few good options at the the UU but I’m not aware of any games based courses at this point in time – hopefully this will change soon.
Darryl
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Yesterday saw the validation of Ireland’s first degree in Computer Games development at ther Institute of Technology in Carlow. The 4 year programme is currently entitled “Bsc in Computer Game Engineering”, but this may change before it goes live in September
IGDA Ireland and a number of other industry and academic figures were involved in validating the course. Carlow IT consulted both the IGDA Curriculum Framework document and a number of industry figures, both here, the UK and the States when designing the curriculum.
Carlow are to be congratulated for leading the way with an effort that is as laudable as it is ambitious
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Two other regional ITs in the Republic were hoping to start games design/development courses this September, but I can now confirm that they will not go ahead until next year.
September will also see Waterford IT begin streaming game development modules along side its regular CS offerings.
Up North, as well as the courses Darryl offers in Coleraine, the NWIFHE in Derry offers a one year HND in games development
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Great news
But the important question is does the course have the lecturers and the equipment to make the course worth-while?? -
Omen,
I guess it will be like every other course in the first year – trial and error – even Abertay would have experienced this. The difference is that this is a four year course and the students will be well equipped to be productive within the Games industry after that length of time as Carlow aim to teach cutting edge content.
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True, but as far as I know, Abertay managed to get someone from DMA Design in pretty early and other game related areas, this helps quite a bit.
As for being equipped to be productive within the Games industry….you are equipped to do this from a good CS course too. After that its a matter of learning game specific stuff that you wont be able to learn til in-house anyway…like using dev kits…
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On the Art side of things too; We have our Head of Art visiting Abertay tomorrow….
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That’d be because the final year computer arts students are doing their presentations tomorrow. Guess VisSci are going to see if they can get themselves some new staff :p
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aaaaaah I see, he’ll be turning up all blinged out in the corporate McLaren F1 so….
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Carlow are planning on using various industry folks as guest lecturers and speakers… they have no industry experience on staff, and this was pointed out to them during the validation process
they also have the budget for high spec machines – they already have a stat-of-the-art audio/visual studio, etc.
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No industry experienced full time staff…hmmm – is it something they plan to address in the future?
I think its very cool that they are doing this course, in school if I was any way programmery inclined, I would have pee’d myself with excitment if this course was available for me.
However, in reality, since I can barely count to twelvety and dispise progammers this is still a cool thing…heres hoping the graduates don’t just get all plucked to work at Rare and Codies ;)
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Carlow are planning on using folks industry as guest lecturers and speakers[/quote:9b5282b390]
Is “folks industry” a company??
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One question on the course starting in Carlow..
Is it going to contain a good few math modules?.. coz lets face it games now a days are becoming more and more maths orientated, so it would be logical that the course should contain quiet a degree of maths.
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yeah, there are 2 x Applied Maths modules and 1 x Applied Physics
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yeah makes sense.. sounds good, pity wasent there 4 years ago heh :)
Ah sure, after a 4 years cs degree, you can learn the rest on your own from a good maths/physic/programming book or during research msc, gives you plenty of time to learn this stuff, I guess!
A formal course is alway good though?
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yeah it was also mentioned briefly in the sunday times, main section last sunday. Around page 10-12 not sure. Short enough write up, but never the less good publicity.
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apparently the NWIFE in Derry have a new feeder course and a new Higher National Certificate in games. Along with their Higher National Diploma and incubation centre they have been busy..more when we get the info in..
Aphra. [/quote:110abb64b5]
Any latest news on this, Ahpra? I’ve read the article here but that’s all I know.I’m really interested in this college so I would appreciate any info you can give.
Thanks! :)
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i’m doing BSc Hons Interactive Multimedia Design
http://www.ulster.ac.uk/prospectus/course/?id=1577
in jordanstownsits seem to be very similar to BSc. in Multimedia at Dublin City University
http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/resources/courses/index.php?article_number=3 -
im doing a BSC in computing and information tech in ITBlanchardstown and im thinking of transfering over to the carlow course for computer game development do u think its worth while? if i do transfer ill have to move down ther and its a big move for me, dont wanna waste my time ya know
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im doing a BSC in computing and information tech in ITBlanchardstown and im thinking of transfering over to the carlow course for computer game development do u think its worth while? if i do transfer ill have to move down ther and its a big move for me, dont wanna waste my time ya know [/quote:2cf40448e9]
Research it – There is bound to be some teething problems with the course , but only you can say if it is a waste of your time :)
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im currently studying the hnc of this course, if you have any questions, i could try and answer them for you as best as i can!
richard
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yeah i was just wondering what the maths in it is like, how high of a standard is it?
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well the maths in the hnc only lasts up untill january this year, so its only 5 months of maths. But we do cover alot. Matrices, vertices, sets, conversions. logic, etc. Seeing as we are only studying the maths class for 5months, we cant really go into much work, but there is still alot there, and in the hnd that starts in september, id say there will be a longer time span for mathematics. The course covers everything,programming, level design, art and design, business, 3dmax, group projects.
I hope some of that info helped you a bit!!!
If you have anymore questions, il try and answer them2.richard
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thanks for the info
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Hi. i was doing the hnc Interactive Computer Entertainment last year. i was one of the first graduates from it. have to say it was a great course. i am now in the incubation they have set up and were going under the name Phooka. things are going really well, we’ve quite a bit of work on. the course is definatley worth doing and getting stuck into. the prospects at the end of it are great. opned my eyes to whole new career path.
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Hey kids, been browsing this site for over a year now and just registered.
Just thought I would let ye know that i’m on the new games development course in Carlow.
If anyone has any questions about it PM or email me and ill answer as best I can.
I’m 25 by the way not just out of the leaving cert so I probably wont be able to answer questions about the CAO and stuff.
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Welcome to gd.ie bobelac :)
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Like bobelac, im here in first year as well. Already posted some thoughts on
http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/community/forums/showthread.php?threadid=983&
in relation to the course.
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hi bobelac & y2kprawn, welcome to GD
I was involved in validating the course in Carlow for HETAC, so I’m interested in hearing how it’s progressing. Keep us informed!
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It looks like the Letterkenny IT Computer Games Development degree will be going ahead this autumn – subject to final revisions..
so that means that Tralee It, Dundalk IT and Letterkenny IT will all be launching degree courses in comptuer game programming this coming Autumn..lots of choice for upcoming students…it will be interesting to see the variations and specialisms that all decide to emphasise..
Aphra.
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thats good to hear, in 4 years we’ll be churning out lots of game grads. lets hope enough companies start up so these folk have jobs. although it does seem more promising from the recent upturn with the announcement of dc, expansion of upstart, expansion of torc.
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we’ve just posted an overview of the Carlow IT degree in games course under resources – a bit late I know..sorry about that..but it was also previewed in a feature last year.
should be useful for those who are want an overview…and want to compare courses..
people from Carlow – please let us know if the course has deviated from this plan..
ta
Aphra.
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Nope, nothing has changed, that is the plan all right. Cheers for getting this up there.
Exams nearly over, all is pretty cool so far , nothing to taxing, well apart from Maths, but I was expecting that. Programming tomorrow. Not so bad methinks. The continuous assessment system is great, really keep you on your toes.
Looking forward to 3D Graphics and Physics next year !! -
good luck man
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This looks like a useful map of game related courses around the world. Interesting to note there are no flags for Ireland yet so relevant lecturers etc. might like to add themselves.
See http://www.frappr.com/gamestudies
Aphra.
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IULM University Milan, Lombardy (Italy)[/quote:dadd3afc7e]
[off topic]Thats where my EX when to UNI *sniff*[/off topic]
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Does anyone else find it annoying that there’s not any type of games course in the west? They seem to be popping up just about everywhere else now, but still not a word of anything in the west. NUIG are adding a couple of Games related modules into the IT course but thats about the sum of it!
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Is there really that much of a demand for so many game courses?
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Does anyone else find it annoying that there’s not any type of games course in the west? They seem to be popping up just about everywhere else now, but still not a word of anything in the west. NUIG are adding a couple of Games related modules into the IT course but thats about the sum of it![/quote:91a180fd52]
From what I’ve heard and read, the west is generally low in development and productivity in all areas. All the jobs, money and courses seem to gravitate towards Dublin and the surrounding areas. -
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Does anyone else find it annoying that there’s not any type of games course in the west? They seem to be popping up just about everywhere else now, but still not a word of anything in the west. NUIG are adding a couple of Games related modules into the IT course but thats about the sum of it![/quote:eb6ed7ff03]
Tralee’s Game development course has started. they have also began to add game development electives to the other computing degrees/certs in the college.
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Hi, I’m also new to this fine forum! I hate to bring an air of negativity to this particular discussion but what exactly is the point in training people to make games here in the first place when there are no jobs to be had? It’s the exact same situation I dealt with when I finished my two years in Ballyfermot studying computer animation and graphics (in 1993/4 I think????). I was basically trained for export. And 12 years on, even though I’m working in Ireland and in games (and very lucky to be) , things have hardly changed.
We have groups like IGDA and colleges and unis all over the place all involved in the industry, we’re just currently missing an actual industry. And if anyone thinks that the small group of mobile dev studios and the one or two PC studios (no offence to any of these guys, they’re doing sterling work and I’m happy someones getting down to it!!!!) here qualify as an industry then they really should look at the UK industry for comparisons.
I can only hope that over the next few years our micro industry expands a bit, though with the global industry on a seemingly perpetual nosedive I fear it may be wishful thinking. I hope to have to eat these words someday. -
your points are well taken Roganski and have been made to the relevant agencies, some of whom are only too well aware of how difficult it is in the business.
however that is no reason not to support those companies who exist and to try and develop new companies.
as for all the courses popping up in colleges – that is a rather more political question driven in part by falling student nos in computer courses and in part by overly enthusiastic reports..the demand is certainly there from students too..we would hope the courses make realistic claims to your students rather than promise them jobs..
some on these boards are working in the UK already and if nothing else people on the boards do actually inject some realism into the proceedings
oh and we are glad you found us!
Aphra.
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Having worked in the UK for close to nine years I have come across many Irish living and working there who would jump at a chance to work here. In fact. I reckon if every Irish person over there actually returned to Ireland for work it would leave a fair sized hole in a great many studios teams. I spent most of my nine years there waiting for an opportunity to return here. I’m all about the Irish industry (how ever tiny it may be). I’m here to support it any which way I can (as is everyone on GD I’m sure). I just don’t currently see any change from ten years ago. There are still just as many people (if not more) keen to get into games dev and there are still as many jobs going (i.e not many at all).
Having said all that and on a more positive note I keep hearing rumours about various big players coming here to take advantage of our corporation taxes. So……fingers crossed. I’m certainly more hopeful of growth here in 2006 than I was in 2005/4/3/2/1/0 etc. etc. especially in terms of mobile dev. -
Hrm, I’m not I agree with you on things not progressing in the last 10 years in terms of the industry. In terms of PC development, the guys up in Torc Interactive were founded in 1999 and StarCave Studios over in Galway were founded in 2001 (I think, site is down atm so can’t double check) plus its looking like things are going to get rather more exciting here in Dublin over the next couple of years in terms of both mobile and PC/Console dev so head up man!
Anyway welcome to the boards! :D
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This has just come through.
Aphra.
MA Digital Games Theory and Design
Brunel, London * * * * * *This innovative new progamme enables students to engage in, and experiment with, practical game design. We explore a range of theories and concepts with which to analyse the values implicit within games and go back to ‘basics’ by considering what it is that makes for ‘good’ game play. Different types of games are explored with the aim of developing designs that are both innovative and that might appeal beyond the current core markets for digital games.
You will be taught by a team of experienced games researchers, some of whom have played a pioneering role in making game studies a new academic discipline. The programme is led by Tanya Krzywinska, Vice President of Digital Games Research Association and co-author of Tomb Raiders and Space Invaders: Videogames Forms and Meanings (IB Tauris, 2006) and co-editor of ScreenPlay: Cinema/Videogames/Interfaces (Wallflower, 2002) and the programme is also taught by Steve Jackson, acclaimed author of interactive fictions, founder of GamesWorkshop and board member of Lionhead Studios.
Contact tanya.krzywinska@brunel.ac.uk or sue.ramus@brunel.ac.uk for more details.
http://www.brunel.ac.uk/about/acad/sa/artcourse/postgraduate/
School of Arts
Brunel University
Cleveland Road
Uxbridge
Middx
UB8 3PH
01895 274000 -
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here is a link to the UL games course which they just sent through this morning. Thanks!
http://www1.csis.ul.ie/prospst/undergraduate_courses/lm110
also click on the link to see what the staff and our own Pavel Barter have to say about games
http://www1.csis.ul.ie/prospst/undergraduate_courses/whatwethink
Aphra.
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A comment I’ve heard from one of our programmers who graduated from UL last year was that their games design & programming degree was almost identical to their trad CS degree, simply re-named
Looking at the course outline, it looks like she wasn’t far wrong
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A comment I’ve heard from one of our programmers who graduated from UL last year was that their games design & programming degree was almost identical to their trad CS degree, simply re-named
Looking at the course outline, it looks like she wasn’t far wrong[/quote:926aa29e79]
Ya i noticed that when i looked at the cirriculum before. Seems to be a common trend with games courses. Lets hope their not doing a comp games degree cause its this years sexy course to have at your uni.
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If the course is a competent one, the name should hardly matter no?
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its not the name that’s the issue its the content
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Like BObelaC and Y2kPrawn, I’m on the Carlow games course.
One year on from my esteemed crustacean colleague’s comments, I’d like to offer an update.
I hate to be negative, but the course has stumbled somewhat.
While I wish to stick with the course, as I am excited by it’s aims, I think I’ll be repeating 2nd year.The difficulty curve from last year turned into something of a spike this year (in terms of Maths, anyway), and Games Engineering has been poorly executed in my opinion.
Joe Keogh had to step down as course director just at the end of 1st year due to sudden illness. He has recovered, and is lecturing, but is not the course head any longer.
A general sense of apathy has developed among me and my colleagues, due to, on some occasions, utterly irrelevant course material, and on others, unreasonable workloads.
As a result, average lecture attendance has plummeted, and many students (myself included) are failing Continuous assessment.
This sounds pretty grim, but things are still good. We’re game developers in the making, and that’s a great thing to be able to tell yourself.
There is ample opportunity to right the course before third year begins. It’s a simply a matter of more communication between powers that be and students.
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I presume you have made a formal submission of your concerns to the course moderator. If not I recommend you do so.
Also I know the course content was approved by a mix of internal, external and industry folk so unless the course content has changed I presume the core modules are those originally approved.
Aphra.
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Cheers for the update, Destructor!!!
I was on the panel that externally assessed the Carlow course… all we were allowed to do was make recommendations as to the balance between course content, what should be covered and what shouldn’t, etc. We had no power of veto or anything like that
the panel made several suggestions regarding the large (and obvious) amount of old CS course content that was being carried across to the new games-specific curriculum that was simply not relevant. We also pointed out that with no industry experienced staff to teach the course, they would need to rely on guest speakers. It looks like much of that advice has been ignored…
Having said that, I still think the Carlow course is second only to Letterkenny’s in being responsive to industry needs and in being a suitably tailored course. That’s a personal opinion, of course.
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could you provide more information regarding the letterkenny degree tony. i noticed though that the carlow degree does offer a 6month work placement, where the letterkenny IT doesnt.
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The course details for LYIT are here:-
BSC in Computing And Computer Games Development
http://www.lyit.ie/courses/computing/Bsc_computing_games_development.htmMSC in Computing And Computer Games Development
http://www.lyit.ie/courses/computing/Msc_computer_games.htmLYIT consulted with Torc Interactive (before my time) when designing the course – and I was an external validator/assessor in my IGDA role
As they later became customers of Torc, I worked with them on training & supporting their use of the Instinct Engine. During that time I spoke a few times with the course heads & tutors, updating them on industry employer concerns, etc. – and to their credit they made some changes
That’s the extent of my experience with Carlow & LYIT
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There’s a real need for industry (e.g. IGDA, etc.) to assess the game dev courses in Ireland (both Nth and Sth of the border) – it’s something we’re working on at the moment. The main assessment criteria we’ve discussed to date are:
[list:e4f55150a9]- industry consultation during the course design
– ongoing engagement/consultancy with industry to reflect the changing business and tech needs
– project-based assessment & portfolio creation
– most importantly, industry experienced lecturers
[/list:u:e4f55150a9]
To date only one college in the country has a games-industry experienced lecturer and that’s TCD’s Steve Collins… and they haven’t even set up their games Msc yet![ if anyone has any more up to date knowledge than what I’ve outlined above, please correct me ]
Anyone else got opinions on this?
What other criteria should be included in such an assessment? -
Should hardware / software usage be included ?
Its going to be a lot harder for a coder without any console experience to get a job.
Software, usage of relevant compilers, languages, art packages. -
Being able to go into a developer with a disk with a playable console game they can throw right into a system would definately set one apart from the crowd.
Having a fundamental understanding about low level hardware is also very beneficial in how to get the absolute most out of a given architecture. There is no chance of learning enough to have a specific knowledge of all the consoles, so a general course in hardware with some references to the various consoles would seem useful.
Is there any real need for a coder to know how to use the various art packages, other than possibly to write importers/exporters for them?
A course needs to get over the whole “well teach you how to make games” and get with the “we’ll teach you how to code, with an emphasis on real time and 3d work” or “we’ll teach you everything you need to know to make good animated models, textures with a focus on creative work as opposed to architectural/cad”.
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ah the age old battle continues.
i agree as usual with Dave there! Less of the create “a jack of all traders, expert of none” and more of a focus on one area and prep the student really well for it.
also coders dont really need to know art packages unless their writing exports (so they’ll be working on tools). Game programmers dont need to know the in’s and outs of studio max. Similarly artist dont need to know what happens to their model when its exported and draw using primitives etc.
I used to think game courses were a good idea, but now im beginning to think. student should do a general cs degree then take a few games relevant models in final two years. when ( A ) they know enough of programming language so they no longer struggle with the language and (B) they have an appreciation for the fundamentals they’re using in terms of hardware, maths etc…
Seems pointless that a student should be learning opengl or directx or animations if they cant get a hello world, simple maths functions working. The previous stuff is hard even for seasoned programmers so its gotta be shit hard for beginners. Reckon games shouldnt be mentioned for at least 2 years in a course, unless its in passing( incidently this data structure , a linked list is handy for game objects in a game ).
ah thats my 2 cents..
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great stuff Omen, Skyclad and Peter_b… keep it coming
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Yup, I totally agree with you Peter, I followed that path, with a Comp App degree from DCU and then a games PgDip in Abertay. I think i’m much better off for it. Definitely think i’m in better shape should i feel like moving out of the industry.
I put the art package in because some of the games course do do an all round thing, and also for games art courses that may appear.
I also think that it would be quiet beneficial for coders to have exposure to Max / Maya. I used to have Maya open daily looking at issues, its gotten less now but I still have to use it. I’ve never actually figured out the whole texturing thing within Maya. Knowing how the system works and how artist work makes a big difference when bug tracking. I’m talking exposure here, possibly a module that exposes students to say, Maya, Photoshop and possibly others. I wouldn’t expect you to have to model stuff, but it’d be really good to know how to use them.
Leaving the course with a fully functioning disk is an ideal situation, but in practice, I don’t know how realistic is. We all know how the end of final year works, with you rushing around, trying to get things working. And unless you can do some good art yourself or unless you’ve got access to some good artists, you’re final demo isn’t going to be the greatest piece of work. I’d be happier to get my stuff in for examination and take my time to make it presentable to a company afterwards.
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Definitely think i’m in better shape should i feel like moving out of the industry.[/quote:fd8fbe1f7a]
Good point didnt even bring that aspect up. If you find that you’re bored of games or you get your ass fired cause the companies gone flop or you simply wanna sell out and make loads of dosh at a bank. You have more options. You can get a regular IT\database job. Something which could be very hard to do when your so specialised in one area, definately if the job spec is experience with J2EE, Databases, HTML and you’ve got experience with Maya\Soundforge\Visual c++\granny\opengl\directx etc.
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this questions goes out to both peter_b and omen.
does both the companies you guys work for take internships or work placements?? -
this questions goes out to both peter_b and omen.
does both the companies you guys work for take internships or work placements??[/quote:92cf35d81c]We’re only here 12 months no internships on the cards right now, but maybe in the future. Although if you have a good demo and submit it you might be the first 8)
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Sorry, we don’t either. I tried to get my girlfriend in for a placement last summer and was told its not done here.
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Most game companies I’ve come across are very paranoid about security.
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Sorry, we don’t either. I tried to get my girlfriend in for a placement last summer and was told its not done here.[/quote:10ce2609ba]
Nepotism or internships :)
As for what kyto said thats also true. Although alot of it is companies want people to become as productive as possible in a short amount of time. typically they’ll invest this time if the person is with them full time and isnt likely to return to education after 6months.
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Wow, I’m glad to read stuff I’ve kept bloody saying for years about game programming to all my lecturers… but it would seem unless you are from the industry, they don’t listen (because common sense, as far as I can tell, isn’t as common as I was led to believe).
Anyway, in a week or two I’ll be done with the hard bits here (after that it’s just exams), so I’ll be sure to post my experience of the PGDip in Letterkenny, if anybody wants it? (I’m asking, cos it would seem nobody here at LYIT gives a toss about our real opinion)
I’m worried that despite the constant feedback we (as in, we the students) have been giving, things will stay as they have been so far. One would hope that the staff will listen to the obvious problems of this course (one being, having lecturers who know what they talk about) but despite the apparent good will, nobody seems to change very quickly in here.
I’m mostly worried that if they don’t show an obvious will to improve the course (in its content as much as in the quality of the lecturing), word of mouth will work its black magic and make people give up on LYIT before the course has a chance to find its feet, so to speak.Certainly, there is room for improvement :roll:
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Ya thats the problem isnt it. Once a course or college gets a bad name its hard to rectify the problem.
I think alot of the problem with these courses are that the staff in colleges dont like to admit that they’re strength or experience doesnt lie in gaming. Therefore they tryto teach new areas and subjects which they have little experience in.
Typically when a CS course tacks on a new module its easy for the lecturer to learn the course work then teach it. For example, a lecturer who already knows C or C++, then translates this knowledge and expertise so as to learn Java etc. to a sufficient level so as to teach the fundamentals etc. Just the bare bones of Java, not writing fancy apps to do graphics\physic simulations etc. Simple methods, class, inheritance etc, maybe a bit of ui.
Few CS courses have the luxury of hiring industry experienced people. Look at the ad which was on gamesindustry.biz for Abertay for about 12months. (dunno if its still there). Im sure theres loads of ads like these knocking about.
But teaching games its a little different because the amount of knowledge the lecturer needs to learn to teach it is pretty huge.
For example, taking the simplist case, to teach a course in realtime graphics, the lecturer may have to learn C (from scratch, yep they may have previously learned java or fortran or something else, it happens! its all down to the programming language which was the flavour of the month at the time they were in uni), causes its not their first language,
as well as learning a graphics API such as Opengl or D3D, as well as researching\learning about real-time graphics techniques. All of which are huge tasks in themselves. Because remember the majority of CS lecturers will not have done subjects like these themselves, unless they are hobbists. These are relatively new areas of computing( programming language exlcuded) and few CS degrees do ‘real-time graphics”. I cant think of one undergrad course.So dont get me wrong lecturers arent at fault, this amount of knowledge which they have to consume and understand to a teaching level is pretty large and really difficult to do, as well as teach other courses as well as other uni\college responsibilities. So i take my hat off to anyone who attempts to do this. Fair play!
But I do think that courses which dont have experience industry folk guiding and teaching alongside the lecturers (for the initially 1-2 years, when the lecturers themselves will become industry savy) will not really prepare the students for what its like in the industry. Think college boards who are serious about games courses need to set aside the money and hire in help. Cause seems to me thats what is halting most of these msc etc. Colleges arent prepared to fork out the dosh.
Cause the cold fact is, it aint all games.. Its seriously hardcore coding and it aint getting easier. Just look at the complexity of the ps3 or 360. They aint no GBA (and that aint an easy thing to do stuff with either).
thats my 4 cents.. :)
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I’m certainly one for having a go at lecturers that are out of touch, but I would like to think I dont do it in such a vitriolic fashion as Philippe above.
Like many areas, academia attracts a certain mindset of people – people who are interested in knowledge for the sake of knowledge, people who are interested in expanding the bounds of existing knowledge, or people who have an intense focus on one area of interest to the exclusion of all else. These people are not necessarily the right people to come to grips with a whole new medium, especially one that is of little interest to their area of research. Another issue is that academics tend to be from a slightly older generation, one that did not have access to the same levels of technology as we do nowadays. As people age, they tend to become more set in their ways, summed up by the classic “When I was your age…” from any member of an older generation.
The end result of this is the basis of what Philippe seems to have a problem with. If you spend all your life focused on one area (especially a technical one), you dont build other libraries of knowledge about the world – for example marketing and using their research and knowledge to *make money*. Of course this doesn’t really matter to many of them – it’s not their goal. Irrespective of this, this category of person is incredibly important as they are the ones that in general push the boundaries of human understanding.
We go to college to obtain some of the understanding that those in specific fields can pass on to us. At the same time we need to respect that many of them are from a generation when games, especially computer games, did not exist. The knowledge you obtain from these people is a seed to be developed in the future in different ways and in accordance with our own unique and limited understandings of how the world works.
In short, if someone can teach you something, try learning it, not dismissing it because it is not exactly what you wanted to hear. All knowledge broadens the mind.
Dave
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Extremely well said…
As for acting upon student feedback the wheels of bureaucracy move slowly. I think the problem we run into is that when game development began to receive more media attention many colleges jumped on the bandwagon for the sake of it with little foresight into the requirements and how it should differ from the standard CS course. Unfortunately people who are attending game development courses in the meantime are guinea pigs and I’d predict it’ll be a few years yet until we see many of the courses reaching a level that the industry would deem acceptable. Of course as I did a CS course I can only offer an opinion of someone looking in.
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Few CS courses have the luxury of hiring industry experienced people. Look at the ad which was on gamesindustry.biz for Abertay for about 12months. (dunno if its still there). Im sure theres loads of ads like these knocking about.
[/quote:0c04678ca8]Lets face facts like. Its tough enough to get an experienced games coder teaching in a Uni course. Why would they learn all these games programming techniques for a couple of years and then leave and go teach entry level people with the salaries lecturers get? I’m not sure exactly now what games programmers get paid but it surely beats a lecturers salary? Working in a development team is going to be much better financially wise not to mention being heavily involved in the thing you spent so long learning in the first place.
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I’m not sure exactly now what games programmers get paid but it surely beats a lecturers salary?[/quote:31612fbb74]
I’d doubt it, lecturers get paid pretty well don’t they.
Also as a lecturer you’ll probably have the time to work part-time as a contractor for someone if you felt like it. -
most applied courses in uni are run by permanent staff who may not have the expertise but know the broad area well and specialist modules are taught by part timers/contractors. To get a permanent job in a uni you usually need to have a PhD which is not exactly conducive to having industry experience in a new field..
ITs will hire lecturers without PhDs but a key problem for their computer courses at the moment is that student nos are falling and in order to keep permanent staff they need to launch new courses but the permanent staff may not be very experienced in the new areas. And usually there is not the money to hire more part timers..
Very chicken and egg –
now in sociology..it is a different matter – loads of students, not enough staff..
assistant and part time lecturers are not paid that well and lecturers to have to forego salaries for 3-5 years while they do Phds so arguably they deserve to be paid accordingly..I guess it is when we get old and out of date that the real problem arises..
Aphra.
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I’m not sure exactly now what games programmers get paid but it surely beats a lecturers salary?[/quote:1d3c8ea3c7]
I’d doubt it, lecturers get paid pretty well don’t they.
Also as a lecturer you’ll probably have the time to work part-time as a contractor for someone if you felt like it.[/quote:1d3c8ea3c7]Most lecturers get paid a hell of a lot more than games programmers. Generally it pays a little under the normal it rate but it depends from company to company some pay above, some below. although some companies offer royalties in a game, this is were programmer may make alot of dosh if the game they worked on sell really well. Ask anyone who worked on a GTA game or colin mccrae.
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Yeah, but ask someone who worked on GTA how many hours they worked…
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and I seriously doubt if everyone who worked on GTA got a share of royalties… its possible, I suppose, but its pretty rare these days to have companies share the royalties with staff. Usually its bonus schemes and stock options
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and I seriously doubt if everyone who worked on GTA got a share of royalties… its possible, I suppose, but its pretty rare these days to have companies share the royalties with staff. Usually its bonus schemes and stock options[/quote:9c0b2474d2]
Well i know one person who was on gta and a good few that were on mccrae and they made a bit from month to month based on sales.
But ya tis true omen, they worked late alot of nights.
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Well i know one person who was on gta and a good few that were on mccrae and they made a bit from month to month based on sales.[/quote:8eb164485a]oh sure, I’m not saying it doesn’t happen – simply that it is not widespread any more. And even in companies that do provide a share of royalties, its increasingly common that only certain core staff get them
so, in short, what I was getting at was that I wouldn’t include it as a factor in reimbursement for a TYPICAL developer job
From Game Developer’s 5th Annual Salary Survey:
– only 22% of repsonsdents got a a royalty share
– 32% project bonus
– 46% got stock optionsalthough another 18% receive a ‘profit share’ of some sort
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Well i know one person who was on gta and a good few that were on mccrae and they made a bit from month to month based on sales.[/quote:a142e3146d]oh sure, I’m not saying it doesn’t happen – simply that it is not widespread any more. And even in companies that do provide a share of royalties, its increasingly common that only certain core staff get them
so, in short, what I was getting at was that I wouldn’t include it as a factor in reimbursement for a TYPICAL developer job
From Game Developer’s 5th Annual Salary Survey:
– only 22% of repsonsdents got a a royalty share
– 32% project bonus
– 46% got stock optionsalthough another 18% receive a ‘profit share’ of some sort[/quote:a142e3146d]
true true.. not many get a share of the pie..
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Why would they learn all these games programming techniques for a couple of years and then leave and go teach entry level people with the salaries lecturers get?[/quote:c401a4b9c9]
As has been said above the pay for lectures is rather good but also never underestimate the attraction of about 5 months holiday per year. :DAlso to touch back on Omens point regarding hardware/software training in college. I think this area is massivly overlooked even in many CS courses today, including our own. Even something as simple as IDE usage is ignored. We’re told “The tools are on the lab machines, use them” when we get to the end of second year. However up until then most people used Notepad/Editplus and a command line compiler for their coding and now they are given this IDE which they have to get to grips with themselves on top of all their other course work. Its not really the best idea in all fairness.
On a hardware level, well this is yet another area which for the most part is completely ignored. It’s touched upon briefly in modules such as Operating Systems and Architecture however because it is only a semester long module it is largly ignored by most students after the exams and then promptly forgotten. Again, not really the best idea imho. :?
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I did all of my Java coding in EditPlus :)
Add in a nice Command option to compile and run and it did everything I needed. Was much happier with that than I would have been with something like JBuilder :) -
Heh, yea I’ve had this debate with some other people in my class. One of my mates did his 3rd year project of ~9,000 lines of code in Editplus and another did it using VIM…I was rather shocked to say the least.
Personally I use Eclipse for all my Java work now, its just so nice and…well, Integrated. I wasn’t, however, introduced to it until I started work in Ericsson where the folks there found it hilarious that I was working with those kind of tools for bigger projects. Needless to say, I was an instant convert. :D
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Eclipse is the job. Some great plugins for it too. i hate people who use VIM always strike me as if they thing their old skool and prentious… If they wanna be old skool code something harder than java in their vim console, like 65000 code. when i used to demonstrate in college it used to annoy the shit out of me people who had bracket problems and were using vim and couldnt find their errors. A slightly more complex editor would have highlighted this bug for them and not wasted my time :)
Editplus is a neat program, provides syntax highlighting for alot for programming languages. cheap too if i remembe correctly. Also eclipse is what comes with the sony ps3 kits.. so a head start for some of ye.
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We used TextPad for Java… I still go back to it for most of the scripting languages… funny how you get use to some programs.
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I’m certainly one for having a go at lecturers that are out of touch, but I would like to think I dont do it in such a vitriolic fashion as Philippe above. [/quote:70397a3b74]
:shock: wow, you thought I was vitriolic? Gee, you mustn’t have been using the same chemistry set than me, cos I assure you I was restraining myself to stay polite and somewhat objective.
It’s hard to do that when I see the waste that’s going on…
maybe I’ll refrain from giving my opinion if it shocks too much, but honestly, even if my style isn’t the most diplomatic, you can appreciate that somebody has to use their voice and tell it like it is, once in a while. no?(sarcasm on)
Ah well, no worries, it’s only students, we can let them leave here without a proper education… it’s not like anyone will notice. As long as we got the money and nobody actually complains…
(sarcasm off) -
WooHoo!
Finally philippe the restraints are off! Just to let everyone know im a first year student doing the course in LYIT. Ill be the first to admit that when it comes to computers i just knew enough to have a basics of the course. I thought brillant , look at the way they are advertising it“Is this programme for me?
Do you play computer games? Ever thought about creating your own?” [/quote:07ec46540e]
I, sitting there, thinking that is the course for me. Ever since i was a child ive wanted to get into making computer games. Before this year i thought id have to do just an ordinary software design course but then up popped this course. Now as my year draws to an end i wish i had done a software design course. Not that im picking on just this course cause there are complaints coming left right and centre through out ireland for the games courses eg carlow. For what its worth the lyit course is very good if you come into it having spent alot of ur time programming at home or for the slight few that pick it up very quickly but if ur not in this category of people prepare to end up like the other 15 or 20 people that have dropped out of this course!In the end barring a slight miracle and i pass the summer exams i still wouldnt come back for the second year as all that is happening is we r being used as guinea pigs. We have spent first year doing java and now the second year is going to be c++ what is the point? Why are they trying to give us a general basic of everyfing instead of just teaching us what we need to know? And why am i asking all these questions when they dont care neways?! If they wanted this course to succeed they would of been talking to the students (the ones that matter, not their stupid grants) but instead they have let people drop out and have let the course fail. Ill be surprised to see out of the 32 that started ,and im being generous here, 10 will get through to second year.
This is my view and its not a rant or anything like it. Its not me being angry at the course even if i do fail. Its me being sorry for all the students that came into this course and wasted an entire year for nothing. THATS what im angry with. And i just HOPE that in sum way they will have learned enuf next year to make the first year course alot better.
P.S. and like philippe i restrained myself lol
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We have spent first year doing java and now the second year is going to be c++ what is the point? [/quote:ed21707227]
If you do any soft eng course you will be or at least, should be, doing exactly that. Sure, you stick with one language the whole time, you might know it slightly better. If you do several languages, you’re in a much much better situation. Having Java and C++ means you’ll be able to go into mobile phone or pc / console programming, whereas you’d be restricted with just one of them. Learning several languages makes you much more knowledgeable abut how languages work and how to go about learning new ones. This is absolutely vital to you getting a job. If you’re a one trick pony, you’re not going to get any coding jobs. I don’t know anything about the couse, but your comments about the above subject are very misguided.
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:shock: wow, you thought I was vitriolic?[/quote:22674e1ee4]
I was just using flowery language, as I often do. It wasn’t an insult :)For what its worth the lyit course is very good if you come into it having spent alot of ur time programming at home or for the slight few that pick it up very quickly but if ur not in this category of people prepare to end up like the other 15 or 20 people that have dropped out of this course! [/quote:22674e1ee4]
Welcome to college. It’s tough. Saying that 15-20 people drop out really improves my respect for the course. It says that it is being run to deliver quality people to the industry. Making games is tough. Its one of the most technically challenging disciplines there is. From the sounds of it, if you can hack the course, then you will get a respectable degree. Too many courses do their damnedest to hold on to people because they are worth money. If LYIT aren’t, much respect to them.We have spent first year doing java and now the second year is going to be c++ what is the point? Why are they trying to give us a general basic of everyfing instead of just teaching us what we need to know?[/quote:22674e1ee4]
Emm??? Java/C++ are the two single most important things you DO need to know. What exactly were you looking for? A free degree? You can get them online from a fake university in the states. Dont expect them to hold much water when you are looking for a job though.If they wanted this course to succeed they would of been talking to the students (the ones that matter, not their stupid grants) but instead they have let people drop out and have let the course fail.[/quote:22674e1ee4]
Wrong. Letterkenny, along with Carlow did what most of the other courses failed to do – they asked the important people: the companies that might hire you if you survived the degree. They decided they were building a degree that was worth something, not one that churned out students that didnt know anything and had no prospects whatsoever. Which would you prefer?Ill be surprised to see out of the 32 that started ,and im being generous here, 10 will get through to second year. [/quote:22674e1ee4]
10 good developers are worth far more than 32 bad ones.Its me being sorry for all the students that came into this course and wasted an entire year for nothing[/quote:22674e1ee4]
Or maybe you learned the games industry wasn’t for you? -
Still amazed people think that someone will be there to hold their hands throughout their college life. No course can teach you everything you need to know only the bases, at least then you should be able to pick up everything else relatively quickly.
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Btw, I’m pretty sure the drop out rate in the games degree in Abertay is really high too. First year sorts out those who were idealistic about doing the course and those who really want to do it.
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Of course i know that only having one language is useless! But ye didnt understand what i mean. And this is a forum where people can express their opinions. And id like it if ye didnt attack everything i say!
With regards to Java what i was trying to say was what was the point of spending a whole year learing a language that nobody has fully grasped? Id ask most people in the course what could they actually create a year on from doing java and the most they could say is a “i can make card game” (and i dont mean graphics i mean text based card game) WOW! I could of learned that from a java for dummies book! That wouldnt get me a job with a PC company either would it? I appreaciate that ye r working in the industry or teaching but are any of ye or have ye went through a computer games course in ireland? No? And we r the guniea pigs here, we r the ones who r spending the money trying to get the degree. Not ye. What im trying to do is be helpful to people who were like me and hope they dont make the same mistake. I want them to have a just opinion of the course before they enter into it. What i meant was for the small time ,and regards to computers and how much it changes, we have we should focus on one thing and make sure we do know it so that we can get a job from it. Sure we start C++ next year what happens if for the 3rd year they decide to go onto basic?
Im trying to give my view of the situation here, sumone who really wanted to do well. Ok i understand a year on it is a course that will require all of ur time and that u will have to work at it. Im not saying that i need sumone to hold my hand im saying if im going to give up the next 4 years of my life for a course i want to know that i will be qualified to get a job and that i can succeed at what i am doing. I dont want to be a month into my job and be told i have no idea what im doing that i must of went to clown college or sumthing. Thats why they needed to talk to the students not just companies. Id like to know exactly what companies they were in talk with? If they are good companies ill agree that there opinions count what if they were just average companies around ireland that r just surviving? What was the point of getting their opinion if when we get out theyll be closed down?
I also know that when we have finished our only likely choice in Ireland is to set up our own games company! I want to know if i started my own company would my class mates be competent enuf to make a game. Im not putting a hell of alot at risk if in all likelyhood the company will fail! Would you? -
Welcome to college. It’s tough. Saying that 15-20 people drop out really improves my respect for the course. It says that it is being run to deliver quality people to the industry. Making games is tough. Its one of the most technically challenging disciplines there is. From the sounds of it, if you can hack the course, then you will get a respectable degree. Too many courses do their damnedest to hold on to people because they are worth money. If LYIT aren’t, much respect to them. [/quote:9ba08eeffc]
Agreed.
Making games is just about the most challenging thing you can do on a computer – aside from predicting the future or simulating fluid dynamics or somesuch (though that’s not too far off being incorporated into games itself – look at Mercury on PSP). It was never going to be easy. I have no problem with a course that is uncompromising with that fact, in terms of difficulty.
And sure enough, between the start of 1st year and the end of 2nd, we’ve lost about 15 people (with replacements, and replacement-replacements keeping the numbers even.), most of whom simply couldn’t hack it, or had other illusions about the course.My current beef is simply that the course is losing it’s precision in some areas and in others, cramming more content than is humanly possible to learn into relatively short spaces of time. I’m looking forward to next year now, as I feel I can make the most of this potential I feel in me (though it could be that cheese sandwich I ate this morning).
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Seems to me if you want a games job theres a pretty simply solution. Go do a CS degree. So you learn programming, learn hardware, sw eng, maths etc. Forget about the games for 3-4 years, so that you can learn how to do everything else on the pc. Then after that or during write some demos, etc in your own time. When you have the foundations the rest is easy.
If you feel your still not ready for games go do a pgdip or msc, they will help you get organised and get a good demo to get the vital interview. Thats what 95% of the people in the industry did it.
im pretty feed up of repeating this but if you cant program a frickin linked list or other simple ADT’s. How the hell do you think you can make a game which will sell. You need to step back from the games and learn the basics. I think people go into these course going, wow im gonna learn to make games. Thats the wrong attitude, it should be wow im going to learn stuff which one day will help me to make games. Games arent easy to make, your programming skills should be a means to get the job done, not a hinderence, if it is your not ready to make games just yet.
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Of course i know that only having one language is useless! But ye didnt understand what i mean. And this is a forum where people can express their opinions. And id like it if ye didnt attack everything i say![/quote:11a52e7710]
My apologies, but I cant exactly agree with you if you are incorrect, and by expressing an opinion in an open forum, one presumes your goal is to stimulate debate, which I have often found is very boring when both sides of the argument agree with each other.With regards to Java what i was trying to say was what was the point of spending a whole year learing a language that nobody has fully grasped? [/quote:11a52e7710]
Programming languages take a lot longer to learn than a single year. People can still be learning new tricks 10+ years after they start using a language on a daily basis. What you should have after a year is a solid grasp of the basics including all the core syntax, how to set up a project, compile it and get it working on your chosen platform. If you dont have that, regardless of the course, you really should get yourself up to scratch.Id ask most people in the course what could they actually create a year on from doing java and the most they could say is a “i can make card game” (and i dont mean graphics i mean text based card game) WOW! I could of learned that from a java for dummies book! [/quote:11a52e7710]
So first year java is as good as Java for Dummies, and you are complaining that noone has grasped it?That wouldnt get me a job with a PC company either would it? I appreaciate that ye r working in the industry or teaching but are any of ye or have ye went through a computer games course in ireland? No? And we r the guniea pigs here, we r the ones who r spending the money trying to get the degree. [/quote:11a52e7710]
How about worrying about the time and effort you need to spend getting the degree as well as the financial cost?Not ye. What im trying to do is be helpful to people who were like me and hope they dont make the same mistake. I want them to have a just opinion of the course before they enter into it. [/quote:11a52e7710]
Fair.Sure we start C++ next year what happens if for the 3rd year they decide to go onto basic?[/quote:11a52e7710]
Then you’ll learn basic. Stody it well, get a good grasp of it, and be confident when an interviewer asks you to write something in it.Im trying to give my view of the situation here, sumone who really wanted to do well.[/quote:11a52e7710]
Do you still want to do well?Thats why they needed to talk to the students not just companies. Id like to know exactly what companies they were in talk with?[/quote:11a52e7710]
Your local Torc Interactive springs to mind. I’m sure others on the forum can fill you in in more detail if they choose to.If they are good companies ill agree that there opinions count what if they were just average companies around ireland that r just surviving? What was the point of getting their opinion if when we get out theyll be closed down?[/quote:11a52e7710]
So you suggest getting the students opinions rather than the companies opinions because you think they will all be closed down by the time you graduate? From the sounds of what you are saying though, there are a lot more students dropping than companies lately.I also know that when we have finished our only likely choice in Ireland is to set up our own games company! I want to know if i started my own company would my class mates be competent enuf to make a game. Im not putting a hell of alot at risk if in all likelyhood the company will fail! [/quote:11a52e7710]
It is very unlikely that without the required additional real world experience, they would be able to hack the pace or survive, no. That goes for all graduates from all universities though, not just lyit.Dave
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Dracula, we’re not attacking you, we’re pointing out the way of the world. If you think you’re going to get more time to learn languages than that in other courses, you’re wrong.
I went to DCU a few years back. First year we were told we were learning C++, but in actual fact, as I found out later, it was C using some C++ syntax. Second year, we did a little more more, and other things like Cobol, ML, Prolog. Third year we did Java, and by that I mean this is the API, go do a project. We were also told to do fully C++ project when most of us didn’t realise we hadn’t actually done C++ properly up to that point. Fourth year was completely self-learn whatever you need for your project.It may sound like we’re attacking but we’re not. All programming courses require you to self learn most of your work. Maybe you got a hard first year, but thats not a bad thing because you do get a lot of stragglers on computer courses as its quiet east to download stuff and make it look like you know what you’re doing.
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Just out of interest Dracula, if you had to state exactly the improvements you thought were required in the course, what would they be?
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I think myself its a big ask for students coming out of their leaving cert to do a games degree. At that point, It definetly seems like a course that would be interesting and rewarding if you love playing games. If the course in Carlow had been around in 2001 i would have done it. And i tell you im so glad it wasnt around cos i wouldnt have lasted in it.
When you get in you realise theres much more than you think to making games. I did a network card game in Java for my final year project. It was a simple concept but i found it very difficult and i had a shit hard time of it. Look at the drop out rate in normal comp science courses. In first year in UL something like 60 out of 200 people dropped out and we were only learning computer science basics like how to program in C and maths etc.. You really need to know exactly what you are getting into before you do one of these gaming degrees. Firstly id say they are one of the most difficult degrees you could do. Secondly, will you end up working in business computer programming anyway because gaming jobs in Ireland are scarce at the moment. It is getting bigger here but chances are is that youll have to be willing to work in the UK for 5 – 10 years.
I did a straightforward comp science degree and i have the option now of doing a pg/dip masters some time in the future when im ready to move to the UK. For now im happy out doing some games programming in my spare time, and enjoying playing games.
My advice to any leaving certs is this, do as peter_b says and forget about games for 4 years and do a normal comp science degree. If you get a chance and feel your able, do any games related modules or projects while your there. Then if you still want to get into games programming when you graduate, then learn it yourself and make a demo or do a masters and make a demo…
As for anyone in one of these courses. Maybe if you are finding it really difficult pass your exams anyway and transfer to 2nd year in a general comp sci degree in another college.
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Just to let ye all know i will get around to replying to everything ye have said im just rigt now in the middle of study and my first exam starts in about 2 hours. But i want to point out that im really glad i raised this argument because look at the amount of feed back ive got. Any one interested in doing a course like this will now know a games course is no way easy. Its hilarious that so many of my friends thought that when i said i was doing a computer games course it would be so easy. Hell no. But i know my self i didnt come into the course thinking it would be easy i hoped id be able to pick up a grasp of games programming but i couldnt and i know now its not sumfing i could do for the rest of my life. So im going to do a business course next year so i will know my stuff so i can start up my own games company with the knowledge i have gained from this year. I dont want my games company to fail because its not sumfing to take lightly, people depend on u and in general it looks bad on the industry in ireland. And again i hope ye will be here to give me advice whenever i need it.
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I think this has been a useful discussion and perhaps once the exams are over we can invite some other parties in the debate to contribute.
A related and interesting development is the Games Academy in Berlin which our german friend Julian K is now teaching at. I might get him to give us some insights into how the game courses there are run.
See http://www.games-academy.de/?id=aktuell-en
Aphra.
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Best of luck with the exams.
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I still go by the opinion that someone else has reiterated here. If you want to do games, do CS and then specialise. That route has so many extra benefits.[/quote:00556a9727]I’d have to agree with you[/quote:00556a9727]
cheers ;)
Cause at the end of the day, if you wanna get out of games and do regular i.t. you have that option. With a games degree its not such an easy route.
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Plus you learn about proper SE techniques and code design patterns.
Going striaght into learning about graphics and audio and such when you’ve not had a lot of exposure to coding has got to be seriously tricky.
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I’m coming into this debate a little late in the day.
I’m currently teaching Game Development, with both Post Grad and Undergrad students.
The courses (Graduate Diploma in Games Development, and Diploma in Interactive Gaming) have both been designed with significant industry feedback, as well as in harmony with the IGDA Framework.
We’ve heard from Midway, Pandemic, to name but a few, who are looking for various levels of employees, and have commented that traditional ‘red-brick’ Universities take too long to react to industry needs. They see specialised / focused courses (both undergrad & post grad) as a necessity.
They’ve gone on record, stating that ‘general purpose programmers’ are not attractive, and they prefer to see students with in-depth knowledge of particular areas (lighting, shading, kinematics, etc.)
Furthermore, some of those polled, including Sony, commented on their in-house training as a preferred means to up-skill entry level programmers.
In saying that, I am a formally trained Software Engineer, with a BSc in Applied Computer Science. 4 years of hard work. Although the curriculum was not all applicable (or necessary), I must accept that it provides me with unique insights. Relational & OO Database (POET) design is now central theory for MMORPG’s. Network Administration & Security is core for apps like PunkBuster. Systems Analysis & Design is Game Design 101. Who would have thought…?
I am still partially divided as to what is the best option for students? Specific, traditional SE at undergrad (4 years) and specialise at post grad (2 years+) or short-term specialised courses (2-3 years).
I guess a fair compromise would be for traditional SE degrees to include more real-time programming, or games as assignment (not blackjack or tetris!), and see if the Game Theory could be ‘smuggled’ (for lack of a better word) in that way.
Industry needs tend to be the driving force, however, if the games industry was to go “belly up” (however unlikely that is) 10,000 HLSL programmers may find it hard to gain employment, in traditional software engineering roles.
There is usually a fair bit of discussion on this topic at the GDC. Has anyone found any relevant material?
B.
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The courses (Graduate Diploma in Games Development, and Diploma in Interactive Gaming) have both been designed with significant industry feedback, as well as in harmony with the IGDA Framework… They’ve gone on record, stating that ‘general purpose programmers’ are not attractive, and they prefer to see students with in-depth knowledge of particular areas (lighting, shading, kinematics, etc.)… I am still partially divided as to what is the best option for students? Specific, traditional SE at undergrad (4 years) and specialise at post grad (2 years+) or short-term specialised courses (2-3 years).
I guess a fair compromise would be for traditional SE degrees to include more real-time programming, or games as assignment (not blackjack or tetris!), and see if the Game Theory could be ‘smuggled’ (for lack of a better word) in that way.
Industry needs tend to be the driving force, however, if the games industry was to go “belly up” (however unlikely that is) 10,000 HLSL programmers may find it hard to gain employment, in traditional software engineering roles.
There is usually a fair bit of discussion on this topic at the GDC. Has anyone found any relevant material?[/quote:bc2c8486e3]nothing springs to mind, but I’m sure a trawl of the presentations for the last 2/3 years may yield something. Having said that, I have the audio and PPT prezzies for GDC 2002 – 2004 and don;t remember coming across anything
The Devlop conference in Brightin in July this year has a session devoted to his topic however
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Carlow IT are advertising in this month’s edge for Lecturers and Assistant Lecturers for their courses
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Well i cant wait for letterkenny to start advertising cause there are two excellent candidates in the masters courses here. Ive learned so much of them and they are so easy to talk to they would be of great help next year and i dont have to say there names cause they know who they are.
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Well i cant wait for letterkenny to start advertising cause there are two excellent candidates in the masters courses here. Ive learned so much of them and they are so easy to talk to they would be of great help next year and i dont have to say there names cause they know who they are.[/quote:ef9e435fc0]
fanboy eh? 8)
Also presumably the adverts are for getting outsider (who are in the industry) to apply to teach ye. Seems a bit counter productive if you advertise and appoint people from an msc who have no industry experience. Why advertise at all?
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but do ye think they actually have any chance of getting anyone from the industry?? i think not! at least the two lads im on bout know there stuff and can communicate with us and teach us effectively. But obiviously wed prefer if they were experienced in the idustry but….
what r the chances! -
They’ve gone on record, stating that ‘general purpose programmers’ are not attractive, and they prefer to see students with in-depth knowledge of particular areas (lighting, shading, kinematics, etc.)
Furthermore, some of those polled, including Sony, commented on their in-house training as a preferred means to up-skill entry level programmers.
[snip]
I am still partially divided as to what is the best option for students? Specific, traditional SE at undergrad (4 years) and specialise at post grad (2 years+) or short-term specialised courses (2-3 years).
[/quote:541b6d44a3]My own experience (having been on both the supply and demand side of this for a bit) is that general purpose degrees with followup specific postgraduate research/courses on additional areas of direct interest are the best approach. Now mileage varies considerably, and there is definitely a place for the more targetted degrees, but the industry needs strong generalists who’ve chosen a particular specialism (like AI, or physics or networking).
Previously as an employer, I looked for people with good results in a comp.sci. or comp.eng. style degree and with either a postgraduate level specialism or a great 4th year project in an area of direct relevance (e.g. physics).
As an academic, I’d prefer to leverage an existing 3 or 4 year degree and take these students into a concentrated Msc (or Phd) programme. Having said that, I’ve also “used” game technology to engage students (i.e. have them develop a game in a C++ course rather than implement yet another banking transaction simulator). So I can see the pedagogic value of dressing a near traditional CS degree course as a computer game tech. course.
Of course, as a game technology enthusiast, I am biased in this respect.
Steve
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Opinion seems to be strongly on the side of a general undergraduate degree, rather than a more specific course when dealing with the programming approach to entering the games industry.
Does this mean that the plethora of game focused courses are in fact to the detriment of the games industry here?
Dave
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but do ye think they actually have any chance of getting anyone from the industry?? i think not! at least the two lads im on bout know there stuff and can communicate with us and teach us effectively. But obiviously wed prefer if they were experienced in the idustry but….
what r the chances![/quote:ee78d61816]Why not? If you pay them well ye’ll get them.. Most courses struggle to get them because they pay them peanuts, you have to offer them something to leave the industry to come to work for ye.
Pay them like a normal lecturer and you’ll get them.. Believe me..
Problem is that abroad anyway normal lecturers dont seem to be making much more than the average well paid game developer. Although at home (in ireland) this is a very different case, lecturering is a very well paid profession.
But if you think you can get them why bother advertising in a games magazine then?
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Does this mean that the plethora of game focused courses are in fact to the detriment of the games industry here?
[/quote:2cea07886f]No I don’t think so – it’s good to have a mix, but I believe even those who do a game course will often need to study further at postgraduate level to have the skills required by many employers in the industry.
As with all things though, it’s horses for courses. Some employers (as a previous poster pointed out) prefer to rely on their in-house training programs. Regardless of qualifications, you would always bank on spending 3 to 6 months training someone up anway…
Steve
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I think its more of a detriment to the individual. We’ve all heard about how high the drop out rate is in games courses. Comp Sci degrees have high drop-outs, but games courses seem to be even higher, because 1) its harder for novices and more importantly 2) its not easy and fun like they thought it was going to be. This means lots of people are going to do it and drop out, wasting their own time.
Of those that do complete the course, I could guess that some will think, maybe this isn’t for them, and with a specific games degree, where are they going to go? It’d be easier to branch out with a Comp Sci degree. -
I think its more of a detriment to the individual. We’ve all heard about how high the drop out rate is in games courses. Comp Sci degrees have high drop-outs, but games courses seem to be even higher[/quote:47818efe08]
An interesting point. If anything, perhaps this illustrates that a compute game course is often simply a computer science course with some curriculum and coursework focus on the game industry. If you think computer science is not for you then likely a game technology course is also not for you.
I would imagine (but have no statistics or experience to back this view up) that any higher drop-out numbers might be down to askew expectations… And maybe this also highlights a requirement for clear lines to be drawn between game technology/development courses and game content/art/design courses.
Steve
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I would imagine (but have no statistics or experience to back this view up) that any higher drop-out numbers might be down to askew expectations… And maybe this also highlights a requirement for clear lines to be drawn between game technology/development courses and game content/art/design courses. [/quote:3085451913]
Yup, I’d agree with that.
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I think its more of a detriment to the individual. We’ve all heard about how high the drop out rate is in games courses. Comp Sci degrees have high drop-outs, but games courses seem to be even higher.[/quote:ad109d2b8d]
I beg to differ.
Year 1 games: 23 students (on average)
Year 1 CS (Same year): 47 students.
Year 2 games: 17 students
Year 2 CS: 7 students.This comes from one of the lecturers (can’t actually remember who – probably David Kelly).
As for Carlow advertising for lecturers, that’s great. I hadn’t bought this month’s Edge yet (have they entered into a sponsorship deal with Webster’s Dictionary or something? Verbose or what?!), but that’s great to hear.
Joe Keogh and I were talking the other day, and he’s aware of the course’s hiccoughs and is hoping to use his influence next year to get things set right, now that he’s feeling better. One of the things he mentioned was advertising in Edge. If anything it’ll help raise the profile of the course.
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The other side of the argument isthat we dont actually have any games degree graduates here to date against which to compare…
Dave
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Yes, and I think a lot of you are dismissing LYIT and ITC’s courses as the same old run of the mill basic training courses. [/quote:adecac1c5a]
No, I’m basing my opinions on what I know a games degree course from Abertay to be, a games course that has been around for several years and has adapted to the times and has constant industry support. If LYIT and ITCs courses can match up to Abertay’s experience, I would be saying the exact same thing about them, but I expect that because of the youth of the courses, they aren’t at that level, so my opinion stands even stronger on that subject. -
right, I was keeping quiet and all, cos I know my opinion is rather harsh, but this is why I am appaled at the course:
From my exam in “Game Technology and Entrepreneurship”
Question 2
a) Demonstrate the use of cloning within a game engine. How can this utility assist greymapping? (7 marks)
b) Describe how to create a new material using a concrete for diffuse, concrete for specular and a material B for normal. (6 marks)
c) Describe the following material used within instinct. Breakdown the following line of code into its consituent parts.
Maptextures\tutorial\setD_misc\concreteMain:BaseDiffuseSpecular{}
(4 marks)
d) Write an animated series material to count from one to ten. (8 marks)
[/quote:4b8a6d017b]
I was gonna comment at length on those actual questions, but I think it speaks for itself. Oh yes, I assure I didn’t make any mistake when quoting, it’s written like that, word for word.
You make your opinion.My favourite is that one, though:
Question 3
…
d) Describe a scene which requires multiple particle systems. (5 marks)
[/quote:4b8a6d017b]
I shit you not…Just for those who ain’t following, this is a Post Graduate Diploma level exam. For a moment there I thought it was English 101: “Use the words ‘smoke’, ‘fire’ and ‘rain’ in a sentence. Extra marks will be earned for the correct use of a passive form verb and an adjective”.
:shock:
I could actually find excuses for the man, but … yeah right.
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Phillipe:
Do you have a course outline or summations of components/modules?
My Post-Grads at the moment are knee-deep in AVL, Red-Black, and Binary Space Partitioning, and I thought that was too easy for post-grad students!
-B.
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Phillipe:
Do you have a course outline or summations of components/modules?
My Post-Grads at the moment are knee-deep in AVL, Red-Black, and Binary Space Partitioning, and I thought that was too easy for post-grad students!
-B.[/quote:aa8570f7a0]
You’d be surprised how many post-grads dont know them though.. Also exams in the first year of a course are typically easy to make sure the majority of sutdents pass. Last thing you want is a 80% failure rate on a brand new course. Students will be put off it, although as a consequence employers will be put off by that fact. At least until the level of difficulty is raise.
It will be interesting to see how many pass that exam, i suspect you’ll still have alot of people who wont get them right. Its a fact of life.
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well, I was hoping that we would be doing BSP and things like that that are actually interesting, but given that most 4th year in here don’t know what a tree is… so we spent the first 6 months of this course (in the Game Programming subject) studying STL. A useful skill, but which should have been taught years ago, not in freakin Post Grad!
peter_b:
You are quite right. I happen to have been “the first wave” quite a number of times in my educational life (my Leaving Cert being the most hilarious example of that).
But what I was trying to show is that there is a chasm between and easy exam and questions that are… how can I put this delicately… an illustration of the lecturer’s understanding of the subject he is teaching us (or the lack thereof, in this particular case).
In sharp contrast, the other half of the exam actually sounded like it had been written by a lecturer.
Yes, I’m being harsh. But I find it hard to swallow being taught by somebody whose extent of the subject is a short series of tutorials, which I could have received directly myself, rather than get the filtered down version by someone who don’t seem to have understood any of it…ooooh, I’m getting all excited about this again. You’ll have to forgive me if I give a version of things that sound a bit biased. It’s not ALL that desperate, but the point is that things like that happen, and they shouldn’t. And the way things look, they don’t want to hear about problems like that because “oh no! It’s too personal, you can’t attack the lecturers!”.
yeah right. If a doctor was fucking up all his operations because he was incompetent, I strongly doubt he would be left on the roll for years. But here, hey, no problem, it’s only students, right?:?
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I reckon philippe_j you should just go make some demos and try get a job in the industry because you appear to know more about games than your lecturers so why waste your time.
But cut the course some frickin slack, all starter courses are like that. Tutorials which over the following years get expanded and more in depth as the lecturer gets used to the subject. You have to remember you cant expect the lecturer to instantly know everything about games and then write in 1 go the best notes and assignments (trial and error accomplishes this).
Look at any college subject and look at the past papers for the subject for the first few year. most of the exams will read like questions ripped straight from the textbook or a tutorial etc. but over the years you’ll notice the questions got tricker and more in depth.
As for BSP’s there done in most 2nd year data structure courses. if you know about avl trees and bst trees etc, bsp isnt much harder. Get out a book you can learn them in a night.
As for learning STL in college, most people dont learn it in college at all. Your expect that if you know programming and you have the fundamentals of data structures you should be able to look at the api and just use it when you need to use it. You surely dont expect classes in how to declare a vector or a stl linked list ??? Thats just hand holding now.
In fact to use STL you probably dont even need to know about data structures ( the clever working of the code anyway), just that v.push_back(x) puts x on the end of a vector blah..Seems to me if you dont like the course quit bitching about it and go do a post-grad else where or do a degree in cs or something ( sorry but i dont know what your current qualifications are). Cause bitch on here aint gonna change the couse..
my 2cents :P
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Two pieces of related news to this thread:
(1) the Skillset accreditation of games dev & design courses in UK and NI (which IGDA Ireland are involved with) have reviewed the courses available in the UK (something like 30 – 40 of them, if memory serves) and only FOUR courses have been accredited. The four courses are: 2 x in Abertay (no surprises there), 1 x in Paisley and 1 x in Wales
The panel for reviewing and accrediting the courses was made up of industry professional and Skillset personnel, and was led by Ian livingstone from Eidos. Read into the results what you will. I’ll post more on this soon, and more on IGDA Ireland’s plans to review & accredit (or not) all of the games-related coures on the island of Ireland over the next year
(2) Over the past two days in Dublin for DTB, there was much discussion on this and related subjects. One of the more promising things I heard about was plans by one of the ITs (who have been following this thread and the others on the site about game dev courses in Ireland with great interest) to develop a new educational course that steers a middle course between the traditional CS and the newer more games-focussed courses. They appear tyo have many of the angles covered already and are in duscussion with a number of other organisations. Its early days yet, but I (personally) have high hopes for this course, given the approach being taken and some of the people involved. More news as it emerges
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The four courses are: 2 x in Abertay (no surprises there), 1 x in Paisley and 1 x in Wales [/quote:d9df9fcbbb]
Wow! Liverpool and Newcastle didn’t. Thought they were supposed to be quiet good.Thats really good news though Tony. Its good to see that all of our ranting and raving does actually do some good. And fair play to the mentioned IT course! (whoever you are :) )
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More info on the UK courses that have been accredited to date:
http://www.skillset.org/games/qualifications/article_4336_1.asp -
Thats really good news though Tony. Its good to see that all of our ranting and raving does actually do some good. And fair play to the mentioned IT course! (whoever you are :) )[/quote:c691aa71a2]shouldn’t surprise you, Damian – you/we do actually talk some sense… sometimes! :P
(except for Ivan when he’s busy trying to win another Humour Award… or making quips about my beard!)
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Another good point ;)
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The four courses are: 2 x in Abertay (no surprises there), 1 x in Paisley and 1 x in Wales [/quote:ebaf464144]
Wow! Liverpool and Newcastle didn’t. Thought they were supposed to be quiet good.Thats really good news though Tony. Its good to see that all of our ranting and raving does actually do some good. And fair play to the mentioned IT course! (whoever you are :) )[/quote:ebaf464144]
i thought this one was meant to be excellent.. university of hull
they’ve got the majority of their grads into game companies (good ones too).on the other i.t. point by tony, lets hope they do this right. I guess they can view the mistakes of the others and try to rectify the problem.
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a few interesting reads on the topic:
GDC 2006 Curriculum Workshop:
http://www.igda.org/articles/msakey_gdc-curriculum.phpIGDA Curriculum Framework paper:
http://www.igda.org/academia/curriculum_framework.php
Some of the courses here have used this as a basis – doesn’t mean they got it right, of course ;) – and it is a pretty high level guide. Interestingly, has been turned into a book:- http://tinyurl.com/megkuLessons from a Full Sail Game Design Failure:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/business/features/fullsailfailure/
Summary of one student’s experience studying game development as a Game Design and Development Student at FullSailSmall Scale Development, Grand Scale Ideas:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article2314.asp
One student’s experience and what you can expect studying a game dev course -
i thought this one was meant to be excellent.. university of hullthey’ve got the majority of their grads into game companies (good ones too).
http://www.mscgames.com/%5B/quote:bd2cc376d8%5DWe just hired a graduate game designer from the Hull course which, as Peter pointed out, has a great rep – and he slated the course. We also interviewed two of his classmates and they weren’t nearly up to his standard, so it may be as much top do with the quality of the individuals as the courses themselves or the instruction they recieve
Anyway, lots of food for thought
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I reckon philippe_j you should just go make some demos and try get a job in the industry because you appear to know more about games than your lecturers so why waste your time.
[/quote:bbe2f065cd]
Because I truly love to learn and I was hoping maybe, just maybe, they would teach me new things. And they did, in fact! I don’t feel I entirely wasted my time.
I agree with you that I should probably just go and find a job in the game industry, but my experience of the industry (the IT one) is that as soon as you start working, although you do learn enormous amounts, the learning seem to occur in a, shall I say, vertical fashion: I learn to know what I already know better, I feel, rather than learning more. Does that make any sense?
In any case, that’s why I like academia, it’s a great place to do research and learning more things, new things that you don’t have the time to learn in a job.But cut the course some frickin slack, all starter courses are like that. Tutorials which over the following years get expanded and more in depth as the lecturer gets used to the subject. You have to remember you cant expect the lecturer to instantly know everything about games and then write in 1 go the best notes and assignments (trial and error accomplishes this).[/quote:bbe2f065cd]
Agreed, and I do appreciate your point. I apologise if I seem overly harsh on the course, but I was just emphasizing how low it can go, by pointing out the one subject that was so below standards that I just had to say something.
Truly, there has been some very interesting things taught, and properly, too. But the gap between the good lecturers and the bad is quite large, and in my opinion unforgivable.
I don’t expect the lecturer to instantly write the best notes, that’s my job (taking notes). What I do expect from him, is to actually have some sort of knowledge of the subject. I could go on and on about that one lecturer, but that’s not the point. My problem is that incompetent people are allowed to teach.
I’m sorry but it’s a big freaking deal. Like I said, a bad doctor would lose his license. Why is a bad lecturer allowed to continue? Dozens of students every year gets bad teaching because of him. Which means down the line, when they get to you the industry guys, they haven’t a clue.
Shouldn’t you care?Look at any college subject and look at the past papers for the subject for the first few year. most of the exams will read like questions ripped straight from the textbook or a tutorial etc. but over the years you’ll notice the questions got tricker and more in depth.
[/quote:bbe2f065cd]
Yes, that’s true. For the good lecturers/courses. For others, they simply change the formatting of what they have copy/pasted from the Net/books as they discover new functionalities in their favourite word processor…
I expect time will tell, but given the precedents with the Computing dept, I’d rather open my big mouth now and be proven wrong later.As for BSP’s there done in most 2nd year data structure courses. if you know about avl trees and bst trees etc, bsp isnt much harder. Get out a book you can learn them in a night.[/quote:bbe2f065cd]
Yup, that’s why I was saying it would have been nice if we had had a brief mention of them. I expect as the lecturers discover the subject, this sort of things will happen. I hope.As for learning STL in college, most people dont learn it in college at all. Your expect that if you know programming and you have the fundamentals of data structures you should be able to look at the api and just use it when you need to use it. You surely dont expect classes in how to declare a vector or a stl linked list ??? Thats just hand holding now.
In fact to use STL you probably dont even need to know about data structures ( the clever working of the code anyway), just that v.push_back(x) puts x on the end of a vector blah..
[/quote:bbe2f065cd]
hand holding. That’s exactly what I think, too. But apparently, the industry people that were consulted prior to the creation of the cursus must have thought different? I don’t think we needed a subject to teach us DirectX then another one teaching us openGL, but that’s what we got, too…Seems to me if you dont like the course quit bitching about it and go do a post-grad else where or do a degree in cs or something ( sorry but i dont know what your current qualifications are).
[/quote:bbe2f065cd]
Well, I’m sorry if I sound like I’m bitching, I guess you’re right though :P
See, the thing is, everybody seems to have this attitude around here: “oh well, I ain’t gonna bitch about it, eh? after all I’m done with the course, so who cares?”. Right?
Well, what about the next wave? I don’t know, but if I were them, I would like it if my predecessors helped make the course better.
I believe the fancy term is “feedback”. It’s apparently becoming really trendy. Gee, we even had a survey, this year! (with completely irrelevant questions, sadly)
Like I said, if it sounds like bitching, then so be it, maybe I’m just gonna have to learn to say it with my diplomatic vocable, but somebody has got to open their mouth and say something.Cause bitch on here aint gonna change the couse…[/quote:bbe2f065cd]
Well, actually, I hope it does change something. You never know, maybe somebody from LYIT is actually reading. That’s the whole idea of the forum isn’t it? To gather all Irish people interested in Game Dev?my 2cents :P[/quote:bbe2f065cd]
Much appreciated, actually. I honestly don’t realise how much of an asshole I sound like, sometimes :oops:(oh for info, I’ve a Telecom & Networks DUT from France, a Diploma in Business Computing, then a BSc for the same, then I started a MSc but got side tracked and gave up… then came back for this Post Grad, mostly so I can finally get the MSc and make my mum proud :P And over those years I’ve of course worked for various companies, mostly as technician/programmer)
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one of the ITs (who have been following this thread and the others on the site about game dev courses in Ireland with great interest)[/quote:373ab8da42]
*Runs for the hills!!!*
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one of the ITs (who have been following this thread and the others on the site about game dev courses in Ireland with great interest)[/quote:7b950711d1]
*Runs for the hills!!!*[/quote:7b950711d1]LOL… not Carlow or LYIT… although they could have been too, i suppose
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*just gets back from the hill with destructor*
AWW crap! LYIT were looking!
*Runs for Mt Everest!!*
never to be seen again……
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lmao! :D :) :D
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Given the forthcoming Women in Games conf and the profile of most game courses it is interesting to note that the MA programme in Digital Games Design offered by the University College for the Creative Arts at Farnham in the UK are offering a number of assisted places to female applicants for the upcoming September 2006 intake.
For more information about this course for 2006, contact enquiries@dgdu.org.
Aphra.
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We had one girl in first year… for about 2 hours.
There are three girls (I think) in 1st year this year… out of 55 students.
Eek.
Can you smell the equality? No.
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Sounds about right for any computer course…. unfrotunatelly
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Games design & development, Ballyfermot:
1st year: 24 students, 2 girls
2nd year: 14 students, 1 girlDare to be Digital 2006: 42 participants, 3 girls
1 team lead/programmer (Irish on Scottish team)
1 character modeller/animator (Scottish on Scottish team)
1 concept artist (International scholar, attached to the Scottish team led by the Irish girl) -
We have 2 ladies and about 70-ish (?) gents at the mo, on the production side of things.
It was worse at my last place :lol:
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Hey Nifty,
Tell Amrita I said hi. -
Why am I not surprised……
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Dundee isn’t a big place :)
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Some interesting info from the Education day at the develop conference in Brighton 2 weeks back:
(a) of the 55 graduates EA recruited in the last year only 1 came from a games-focused degree
(b) the update to the IGDA Education white paper will include a section on the accreditation process developeed in the UK by industry and Skillset over the last year -
Did they mention dare participants at all? I’m definitely being given the impression that EA does a large recruitment drive at the showcase each year
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Did they mention dare participants at all? I’m definitely being given the impression that EA does a large recruitment drive at the showcase each year[/quote:663954dd74]not really. EA are there every year (big supporters of Dare) and make a speech offering jobs to all and sundry, but they don’t always get taken up on the offer
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Yup, last year I think two teams got offered intern placements, so then they get a few months to see what you’re like.
When we did it, they invited us down to do our presentation and then gave us interviews there and then with no preperation, which was pretty crappy. Hired 3 of the guys, none of them are still there. -
Hi guys,
Ive just done a masters in comp science. taking a year out but planning to do masters next year in computer graphics. Its concept art that i would like to get into really. any suggestions or recommendations on a course. I do alot of free hand sketching and drawing also and would like to incorporate this as much as possible.
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Hi guys,
Ive just done a masters in comp science. taking a year out but planning to do masters next year in computer graphics. Its concept art that i would like to get into really. any suggestions or recommendations on a course. I do alot of free hand sketching and drawing also and would like to incorporate this as much as possible.[/quote:cca1eec133]are there any Msc courses in Game Graphics? Can’t think of any off hand
check listings in Courses section on this site as a first stop (only covers Ireland). Then you can try http://www.gamecareerguide.com/ for US and some UK courses too
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Abertay have a MA Game Art & Animation
Can’t imagine there’d be one mainly based on concept stuff though.
http://www.abertay.ac.uk/Courses/CDetails.cfm?CID=315&Key=002.003
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EA us graduates like cannon fodder. Saying that it is a great place to work but it can be very PC.
From Dare. 3 where hired the year I started. 5 the year after and last year we I know we had 2 or 3.
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I know its submission time Kev, but you need a bit of work on your grammar :)
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yeap should of read what I posted first…
Go do some work..
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Hes bogged off home….bleedin slacker :evil:
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Woo I changed from ITB and now i’m doing the LUDO course in BCFE.
It’s pretty good so far, and ive only done 2 days!
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Woo I changed from ITB and now i’m doing the LUDO course in BCFE.
It’s pretty good so far, and ive only done 2 days![/quote:32d06a53f4]
Yeah LUDO is a fun course, but things really pick up in CGHND. The course has been running for a few years now and a lot of the wrinkles have been ironed out of it. You should look at continuing in it next year if your planning to go all the way, it also lets you get into degree courses in the UK easier and usually into second year.
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Ok i need to understand this, any one here form Carlow IT doing the games development course? If so, is it just programming all the way or do you get to play around with 3d softwares and learn how to make 3d objects and level design, because one of the subjects is computer graphics so i wana know.
Cheers, sorry for the english am in a rush my lcvp teacher is looking for me. :D :D :D
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Me, Murphy104, Darragh, Y2KPrawn, Bobelac, and one or two others here are on the course.
In response, the course DOES lean very heavily on the programming side of things. The 3D Graphics and Audio module from 2nd-year onwards is in fact 3D graphics programming. I wish there was more of a creative/artistic bent to the course, but alas, it is all about the programming, really.
Very interesting, never the less.
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it is all about the programming, really.
[/quote:a3860e5044]
Well it is kind of important in a "computer" game :)
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Me, Murphy104, Darragh, Y2KPrawn, Bobelac, and one or two others here are on the course.
In response, the course DOES lean very heavily on the programming side of things. The 3D Graphics and Audio module from 2nd-year onwards is in fact 3D graphics programming. I wish there was more of a creative/artistic bent to the course, but alas, it is all about the programming, really.
Very interesting, never the less.[/quote:feb923e6ff]
thats why ballyfermot course is the best
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dang it. Cheers ok i thing i will do the computing course.
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thats why ballyfermot course is the best[/quote:78af4ecd98]
Heck I wouldn’t go that far! I would like to see greater co-operation between courses rather than greater competition. Its not college against college its Ireland against the world if we want to attract more jobs to the country.
Iv been in Ballyfermot a long time and I think its great. The cghnd games design course is great, but it is a DESIGN course. When it comes to programming we get the bare essentials so we can prototype gameplay mechanics and levels and communicate efficiently with programmers. Sure we can and do make games that work, all three teams in second year will have fully functioning prototypes to show at the diploma show this year that all look really well, but a lot of development time was spent on programming that we would have rather spent on design. It was one of the reasons our team didnt get through to dare. They felt we didnt have enough programming experience. Which on paper we didn’t, however we have been using our engine intensively for a year and we got pretty good results. It would have been great to have a programmer on board and the game would have been better for it, no denying that though.
The one criticism I have of Ballyfermot is that it doesn’t have a programming course to augment the design course. I’m not complaining about the programming experience in Ballyfermot its great to get a good insight into the hassle and problems that face programmers, and also to understand why they like the job. I think it makes us better at design. Programmers aren’t weirdo sado-masochists, their is definite satisfaction in it, not my cup of tea but i can see the attraction.
So as a learning experience and for preparing me for work Ballyfermot got it right, for portfolio preparation and getting me in the door it could have been better. Swings and round abouts. I just think having a programming course nearby would help the summer you leave the college. A couple of free months, designers and programmers who know each other…The focus of the course in Ballyfermot is on designing levels, character design, gameplay types/mechanics and the cultural significance of the design choices. Thats not being arty farty one the last one. It pretty much decides who will play the game. Its about ways to play games. You can have the most technically advanced game in the world but if its not designed properly who wants to play it? Design is a skill that I think only comes with time and practice and its not easily quantifiable, that’s why i think there is a need for design based course AND development based courses. 3-4 years in college is not enough time for someone to learn both. An architect probably cant build a house with out a architectural technician and an engineer, just like an engineer probably wont build a house that people want to live in.
Ok so here is my two cents towards the debate on game education in Ireland:
I think the industry needs courses training people from college to fill roles in the industry. As a medium games are maturing and it needs to start specifically training people for roles rather that just hoping to pick up people with the necessary skills from other disciplines. I’m not saying that people from other disciplines cant make great games designers and developers but I think higher standards will be reached if people are specifically trained for it. Sure many courses haven’t gotten it right yet, but if dare to be digital is anything to go by the standard is rising very quickly. I think the industry needs to be more forward about what they like about graduates and much more specific in what they don’t like.
I think im done :oops: -
yea i agree with john there , (lol i am his class and all ) , but yea , the only thing wrong with ballyfermot , is its too short , but if you apply to england like some of us are doing now , they do consider it a degree , and with good reason
i went into the course straight out of 2nd level , and as you know the leaving cert in this country is useless , i mean, i had only just done a little unreal level design and autocad stuff. and some programming. so i had alot of ground to make up. but in two years , i feel i have learn a hugh deal . plus i think the course is great , for showing you every part of games development , , level design , programmer , modeling. So you really get a feel for everything.
oh and p.s. john if i built a house it whould be twice as large as yours and hover above the ground ,
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Er mariano, I know my spelling is rubbish but dear god man! Your either drunk or have been up all night finishing assignments. My money’s on the former…no wait the latter.
D’oh i always get those confused :)Also my house would have ray guns so your house wouldnt be bigger than mine for long.
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no up all night doing programming and essay on our game , i will save the drinking till we are finished college
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Mariano, John, Cian
It’s sweet of you all to say such kind and flattering words about your course — especially since you’re handing up your final assignments tomorrow.
:)
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Er… yeah Shane about that…. I was hoping for an exte…no? but you didnt even hear me ou…ok
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Ok guys i do agree with both of ya. Ireland really needs a good d based design course soley for people that want to enter into that field alone especially with the talent the lectures ahve in Ballyfermot. Uunfortunatley they dont and you have to go to engalnd for that. which is not fun as it costs a small fortune to pay for accomadation and the fees for each yeah. With doin 2 years in Ireland you still have to go to england and do a further 2 years to get a degree where as if ya did that originally you only have to do 3 years. this is because the course that is run in ballyfermot is such an extensive one that covers alot of differnt areas. One thing it could do with adding is some practical drawing and design classes that could be run in sequence withthe annimation course that is there, as all the best designers out there are able to draw as well even just a little bit. If the storyboard class that they run in the first year was more based on how to put a storyboard together instead of it looking arty-farty that would also be better.
Oh any one last thing
Why quote Team America can ya not cmoe up with somethin original and maybe abit funnyier.
F*ck Yeah -
Arty-farty? Explain please.
I always thought the idea was to teach you how to communicate quickly and clearly to a team using a whiteboard, rather than reveal your naked soul to the world. Given that 50% of a typical class confess to being unable to draw on day 1 (and we don’t expect anyone to be a photorealistic pencil artist), it has meant coming up with ways to communicate visually that can be taught to non-artists, such as following an orthographic grid to draw 3D objects.
Anyhow, I think what you’re looking for (a drawing course) is not possible at the same time as you do the HND course, which is pretty packed for modules as it is. There is a 1-year FETAC course which feeds into the Animation HND that just teaches drawing skills. If you’re just looking for skills, it’s a good thing to do after the HND. If you’re eager to appear qualified, try NCAD for a B.A., though I don’t know what faculty would be best if you’re walking in with a HND in game design.
Actually, if you have an aptitude for drawing, but haven’t been trained, Trinity have always run a pay-at-the-door life-drawing night class, but I’m not sure when it runs. It’s probably the best bet if you just want to refine drawing skills with no, er, arty-farty bullshit.
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Thanks for the advice, I didn’t mean to offend about the storyboard class all I meant was that it was more about they they of couloour you used and thedifferent materials to make the storyboard than how to Design one to get your ideas across in the best way. Maybe if it was mixed in with a bit of concept design,just to help people to to even know how to have a stick figure represent what they want during class time might denefit the student alot. If 50% of a class cant draw the 50% can and it might help their carrer out if they had a little bit of drawing skill added to their diploma instead of having to do Another extra year in college. There would be plenty of time to do this considering that classes are useually only 2 hours long, I dont think students would mind an extra 2 hours a week.
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Its not necessarily 2 years further for a degree….
UK universities (at least the ones I spoke to) consider the quality of your work as well as the level of qualification. I finished in Ballyfermot last year and was looking to go to the uk for further education.
Going to Dare didn’t factor into it as this was all taking place before the application process had begun.
Southbank were willing to take me into 3rd year, and only refused me entry into 4th year because much of 4th year in their games course comes directly out of the 3rd year integrated project.
Brunel Univeristy however offered me a place in their masters program. Which I took, and have now completed (dissertation due in september). And that door is still open to Ballyfermot students, and I presume others.
So yes, I would have had to do 2 years for a degree, but had I known of southbank’s requirements I could have steered my projects to meet their requirements for 4th year entry. But the alternative of a single intensive year to get a masters degree does exist.
Following Dare I spoke to the staff at Abertay, and they are interested in applications from Ballyfermot students.
As for the content of CGHND at Ballyfermot it offers a broad base with room to specialise and I couldn’t be happier with it (hindsight is 20/20, the stress of assignments can cloud just how excellent that course is).
And though I can’t go into specifics, its the base provided by Ballyfermot, combined with the title of a degree that has put me where I am. Which is one day after my lectures have finished here in Brunel I have a foot in the door.
@Gortmore I think I was of the same opinion as you regarding the storyboard class, but I think you took a very different class to the one I took. And regards the expense of studying abroad I’ve found it tough, but very much worth it. Especially as I now have at least 2 very different aproaches to games education under my belt.
@Shane If you want to pop me a mail or PM I’d be glad to answer any question/expand on opinions for you.
@John & Mario My house would be omnipresent with robotic monkey butlers. Basically it would be wherever I wanted it to be, and look after itself. They would of course be ninja robotic monkey butlers.
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Ive been accepted in to the second of 3 years in a few colleges but cant apply for the final year as it is based like you said on the strongly on the second year like in southbank. I did have a differnt story board class than you. Glamorgan is considering my application but they have a lot of work based on art which they include in their degree as they feel that it helps animators to do better work if you can do some concept art as well. This is considered one of the top 3 colleges for a design degree in the UK. Im hoping to get in here as I used to do alot of drawing for myself before I started in ballyfermot, I’ll just have to brush up on it during the summer.
@nifty have you had any look getting a job in Ireland or are ya working in the UK.
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I’m only looking in the uk for the moment. I need to stay close enough to the university for dissertation meetings and the like. Plus I live on campus and have to pay my rent in advance, so I’m getting my money’s worth out of my little cell.
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Ah yes the curse of student accommodation. My god do we get taken for a ride! The last place I lived in my room as 6foot 6 inches long and was 5 foot wide. Thank god I’m not a big man;) 380euro a month sharing the house with 2 others and by dublin standards thats cheap.
On other news I just accepted a place in South Bank, going into the second year. I hope it lives up to what i have heard about it. I know I have said this before but it really is very difficult to get accurate information on courses. If its as good as people have been saying though, Im going to like it there.
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That sounds like a horror story to me, I know plenty of people living in really large rooms for about the same, so that is in no way a typical example…you must either be getting shafted or live in Temple Bar or something.
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Thats pretty much the norm central to town, atleast for under 400.
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Hey all,
I’ve just finished the PgDip section of the MSc in Computer Game Technology course in Abertay, heading back home to Ireland to start the MSc part on Friday yay! Just thought I’d add my two cent to this topic and give ye all my opinions of the course!
To say the course hasn’t reached my expectations is a major understatement. It could be just that we(two other lads that did the Computer Science degree in UCC did the course) came along at a bad year because it seems to be sort of a little lost at the moment or to use a football managers phrase ‘in transition’. Coming from the computer science degree in UCC I had certain expectations on the quality of lectures(whenever there was any) and unfortunately too many at Abertay didn’t live up to these, maybe we were spoilt in UCC :POut of the six modules we did, two weren’t up to scratch whatsoever and another module was sorta cobbled together as a last ditch due to a staff member leaving. That said the guy who came in did have a lot of industry experience (very bitter man from it!!) and opened our eyes as to some of the harsh realities of the industry. I won’t go into the details of the two very bad courses but there has been a few public arguments about the courses and think the college are left in little doubt as to the classes impression of them.
The other three courses were fine, the DirectX and PS2 lecturers entertaining, motivated and good teachers. The Maths teacher was a bit grumpy but it was a very important module, would have rathered if it went on over the whole year due to the importance of maths in games but the college say they can’t afford it so thats fair enough.If anyone is interested here are some of the skills I’ve picked up through the year:
Writing – oh yes there is a hell of a lot of it for the course, your game gets you to 40%, the writeups get you the rest of the marks
DirectX – didn’t know a bit of it before and now am very comfortable with it
C++ – only knew C and Java before Abertay but leave far more confident in C++.
PS2 – know the structure and how to program VCL. I’ve mostly learnt I don’t wanna work with the Playstations in the future, although the VCL is meant to be closer to C in the PS3 which would make life a whole lot easier.
Maths – Matrices, world-view-screen transformations etc, vector maths(dot and cross products), collision detection theory, rigid body physics, frustum culling and a whole bunch more.
AI – Not enough IMO. However did a project using Fuzzy logic, Genetic algorithms for the AI course to land a spaceship. Made a racing game for DirectX where opposition AI follow racing lines and fire rockets at the player. Implemented a three tiered AI system for a Lego-based RTS game using Ogre3d.Low level FSM for individual units, group AI to control, update and move around groups of units(obviously) and then a master AI to direct unit groups, decide overall strategy and control the building manager. Am planning on doing my Masters modding UT2004 and putting in goal oriented action planning as a means of controlling AI bots in domination game-mode.
Group work – did a group project using Ogre3d so got used to using that. Used SourceSafe as a CVS which could be useful in the future I suppose.
Industry – Learnt quite a bit about the industry from lecturers and some talks put on by the college which proved to be pretty handy.
One of the major problems I have with the course is that we didn’t get an insight into real-life game programming. Even though there are several games companies around Dundee we didn’t get to talk with a single programmer, see a single industry standard design document or see a designed game (the classes and structure that is). That disappointed me when there is so many ex-students who could have done that. We did a design document for our group project but that was handed in back in October, hasn’t been corrected as of yet and got no feedback from it. We had to go and make that game so we’ve no idea if we did a good, bad or indifferent job.
Overall I feel slightly let down by the course as it has such a massive reputation and I know that several others in the class feel the same. We passed on our feelings and it did seem to hit home with a few of the lecturers. They have promised some big changes in some of the courses for next year so will have to check back in a years time to see if they have happened or not. They are leaving one course as it was this year however and it was the one that we all had the biggest problem with which is quite worrying.
All that said I’ve come out of the course with four games which quadruples my previous amount and have another on the way with the MSc so thats major plus. Feel free to PM me if any of ye want to know any more about Dundee or are thinking about doing the course,its not all bad!!!
PS. over twenty started the course this year and only 13 are finishing it, out of that 5 are Irish!
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Tiga research questions value of games courses
"Very few graduates of ‘so-called’ games courses are fit for purpose"
Full article here: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=24950
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Hey all,
I’ve just finished the PgDip section of the MSc in Computer Game Technology course in Abertay, heading back home to Ireland to start the MSc part on Friday yay! Just thought I’d add my two cent to this topic and give ye all my opinions of the course![/quote:271737578b] Hey Parrotbait, thanks for the overview of your Abertay experiences.It would be great if more graduates of the games courses here and in the UK posted summaries like this so that others might learn what to expect… and you never know, it might even make a difference!
Cheers again
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I was in the same class as parrotbait at Abertay this year and while he makes some good points I think he’s probably been a little bit harsh overall.
From my point of view, the core of the course were the PS2 and DirectX modules, and in both cases I found the lecturers to be more helpful than any lecturer I had in my entire undergrad course at DCU, and for that alone the course was worth it. I learned a huge amount about directx programming, and also about programming for the PS2 which may be a little outdated but it was valuable experience at working with low level code and I’m sure will be useful for working with other consoles in future. I am far more confident working with C++ and certainly working with 3D graphics, much more than I learnt in 2 modules of graphics programming in final year of my undergrad course.
The peripheral courses weren’t quite so accomplished, but there was only one that I had major issues with and the university has been very clear that it will be fixed next year, we got caught by the fact that the lecturer in charge of the course left the university which really left us working on our own as his replacement was simply inadequate.
I found I learned a lot about how games are coded and I have a portfolio I’m quite happy with after a year of work. The course has a great reputation amongst games companies I’ve spoken to and I think the contacts I’ve made in Dundee will be every bit as valuable as what I actually learnt.
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Thanks to the guys from Queens for sending us more detail on their new postgraduate course.
see http://www.gamedevelopers.ie/courses/viewcourse.php?article=28
we now have 27 relevant courses of various levels available to interested students in Ireland!
Aphra.
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If you a girl/woman and wondering if the games industry is the place for you or not take a look at this video produced with women working in Rare in the UK.
see http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/icast/archive/s2week11/
Aphra.
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hi everyone,
I found this site here about the new course offered by the university of abertay dundee.the link is here:http://www.abertay.ac.uk/Courses/CDetails.cfm?CID=446&Key=004.001
however i dont really get it where it says:This course was under development for 2008 entry and is therefore offered subject to approval…can anyone please tell me wat does tat really mean? i’m not the best with english myself :( oh and if anyone have more infos on this course pls just give us a head up yea, thanks n have a nice day^^
jinkazama99
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Sometimes this means that the course has to be validated, subject to interest etc.
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Not quiet sure why, that course has been running for many years. I’m guessing they’ve re-jigged the course to make it better.
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oh ok thanks guys, i’m considering if i should enter this course n give it my all 4 the moment, cheers!!
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I am currently studying Computer and Video games design in Salford Uni manchester, it is a good course but it is primarily targeted towards games designers.
to sum the course up its good for games designers but bad for programmers which is me :D:D :evil:
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just wondering the course in carlow is IT, do you need any artistic ability?
and is it worth 4 years of your life?
im in 5th year just going into 6th and starting to think about course and on paper this seems the one for me but i wanna hear off somone who know what there talking about -
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UU Magee and Game Development
Hi all, just an update and a question really. I recently visited UU Magee in Derry City and found out, by chance, that they have had a dedicated game development degree course running there for the past 3 years.
This was news to me, and I thought I’d share it with the rest of you guys. Also, they seem to be really on the ball, as C++ is (rightfully – IMO) taking centre-stage on the course.
Not only that, but industry workshops & guest lectures seem to be a regular occurence with Emergent, Microsoft, NVidia and others having come from the U.S. to their campus.
On top of all that, I understand that (THE) Ernest Adams himself has an office there.
Congratulations to all involved, and I ask if there are any UU Magee students about these forums???
Any YouTube footage of projects, course links, etc???
-Brendan.
EDIT: course homepage: http://scis.ulster.ac.uk/beng-hons-computer-games-development.html
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UU Magee cont…
Following on from the above post, I’ve found the following news items which again, show those guys to be on the ball!
UU Magee hosts Microsoft Games Summit – http://news.ulster.ac.uk/releases/2009/4413.html
UU Magee’s game society – meets weekly – http://scis.ulster.ac.uk/Latest/magee-games-and-anime-society-20092010.html
Ernest Adams arrives to teach at UU Magee – http://scis.ulster.ac.uk/Latest/computer-games-guru-ernest-adams-visits-school-from19th-23rd-october-2009.html
UU Magee Lab Resources – running GAMEBRYO (!!!) – http://scis.ulster.ac.uk/Games/laboratory-resources.html
UU Magee Game Dev Course Offerings – http://scis.ulster.ac.uk/Courses/games-at-scis.html
Alright, I hope this shines some well-deserved light on what’s happening in UU Magee.
-Brendan.
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UU Magee and Game Development
Hi all, just an update and a question really. I recently visited UU Magee in Derry City and found out, by chance, that they have had a dedicated game development degree course running there for the past 3 years.
This was news to me, and I thought I’d share it with the rest of you guys. Also, they seem to be really on the ball, as C++ is (rightfully – IMO) taking centre-stage on the course.
Not only that, but industry workshops & guest lectures seem to be a regular occurence with Emergent, Microsoft, NVidia and others having come from the U.S. to their campus.
On top of all that, I understand that (THE) Ernest Adams himself has an office there.
Congratulations to all involved, and I ask if there are any UU Magee students about these forums???
Any YouTube footage of projects, course links, etc???
-Brendan.[/quote:4e2e52936a]
Any past graduates working for recognised game studios abroad?
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Yes I did know that UU had games courses on different campuses – in Coleraine and in Magee. And yes I think we posted a news thing way back about Ernest’s position as a visiting guest lecturer.
I didn’t know Magee had two courses and I see we don’t have a description in our list of courses…
I will contact the guys involved and get more info.
Aphra.
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thanks…………
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Any word on how much the Maya course is?
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Ah, cool, thanks for the link. Mhhh, a good bit outside what I can afford atm, back to self learning from the internet I think :-)
BTW: I have been using an official Autodesk book: "Learning Autodesk Maya 2009", its pretty good, and fairly easy to follow and get stuff working, recommended to anyone looking to learn Maya, esp the character rigging aspect.
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Hi Richard, who is teaching on the course?
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Hi Pete,
That would be me. It launched in March, and the first class is nearing completion. Can I answer any questions regarding the content etc?
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Hi all,
We are updating our list of educational courses and the first ten on the list are now up to date based on current information on respective websites etc.
Do let us know if information is out of date as things change fast in colleges. I just realised that NWIFE was merged into North West Regional College for example…
thanks
Aphra.
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Any further updates on this list. Is there any missing?
Does athlone have a course? or is the clane college one up there yet?
Gavin
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New 2-year MFA Degree in Game Design starting in Autumn 2012 in NYU.
http://gamecenter.nyu.edu/academics/graduate
Aphra.
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That looks amazing
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There are some nice bio stories on game companies and geting into the industry over on the smart futures website – aimed at secondary school students.
See http://smartfutures.ie/2011/
Aphra.
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My blog post on working in games, aimed at secondary school students, is online at http://smartfutures.ie/
Aphra.
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Great post Aphra.
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Nice post, thanks for the Gamecraft mention :D
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Hey, just a heads up that my evening class is running in Clane again, beginning next Wednesday, and there are a few places left if anyone is interested: richard@clanecollege.com.
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So I see that the University of Abertay at Dundee now has a fully kitted lab with Playstation Dev kits. Some competition!
http://www.abertay.ac.uk/about/news/newsarchive/2014/name,15873,en.html
Aphra
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I was at Dare to Be Digital at Abertay. Their facilities are fantastic!!
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Hey guys!
Scott Wilson here from Cenit College (formerly known as Clane College)
We will be running a FETAC Level 6 Major award in Game Development. It’s a brand new course designed by myself, Dave McCabe and Claire Fitch and it is scheduled to run from September till June.
Students will be getting their hands dirty in the following subjects:
-3D Modelling
-2D Digital Graphics
-Game Theory
-Narrative Design
-Sound Design
-2D Game Development
-3D Game DevelopmentFor a taste of the work feel free to visit our recent show reel from previous students
And for more information you can visit our new website:
http://www.gamedesignireland.ie
Or if you want to email me: scott.wilson@cenitcollege.ie
Thanks for your time and have a great weekend :)
Scott Wilson
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Best of luck with it Scott
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gd.ie updated our listing of game courses and training on the island as of January 2015.
We are not promoting them….just listing them…
Aphra
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- The forum ‘Education, Training and Jobs’ is closed to new topics and replies.