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Hi everyone. Sorry to be digging up old skeletons here again- you’re probably all sick to death seeing threads like this, but it’s something i’m getting quite worried about and i’d be interested to hear any advice (particularily from those currently or previously within the industry) on the subject of finding work placement in games development.
Well my situation is this: I’m currently in my second year now of the Game Dev course at Carlow IT and part of next year will involve finding work placement and carrying on with it for 6 months. Now I know its very early to be thinking about this already, but the industry is very competitive as you all well know and standards are high- so finding a place will be very tough to say the least. Whats really been worrying me is that I’ve been talking to the 3rd years in the course about their placement (which will start soon) and apparently most of them are having great difficulties in finding jobs; I won’t go into the details about this situation because I do not think it gives a fair overall perspective on the course, but it is most worrying to say the least.
Hence the reason I want to start getting my house in order now while I have time. The first step I’ve taken is to make a website with a little portfolio and CV, personal information, and some writings about good games I enjoyed (which I hope will help demonstrate my interest in gaming towards the employer). Its a little scant at the moment, but I should be able to flesh it out over the year as I find the time to do so.
Ok so thats one thing covered. Other things I’m kinda guessing I should take into account now too (correct me if you feel I’m wrong) include:
– I should probably aim towards finding placement with larger companies. Small and closely knit development teams are not likely to want some student just walking in and joining the team- as it might disrupt everyone. Conversly though I feel that large developers working on high profile games are not likely to want a student in working with them either- mainly down to a lack of trust of outsiders and the secrecy surrounding such titles. I guess i’m a little confused on this one..
– Team work and social skills are going to be an important factor in deciding if I get a placement or not. We haven’t done much group work on the course yet so i’m not sure how to convey this to an employer. Perhaps a picture or two of me with the girlfriend (yes I do have one! :) ) might help in this regard.
– They are going to want to see that I can work on time and to schedule (within reason) and can cope with pressure. The current project I am working on (see my website) is the biggest project I’ve embarked on yet thus far and I’m certainly feeling the strain of it already- 30K lines of code thus far and it still doens’t do a whole lot !! Perhaps a little write up after this detailing how I coped with it would be beneficial in that regard.
– When considering an overseas developer (which is most likely where I will have to go) , they won’t want any issues or hassel surrounding work permits or visas, so I should make it crystal clear to them that I have no problems in this regard.
These are just some of the things that are coming to mind right now. I’m sure there’s a lot more I’ve missed out on but I’m probably boring you already with this so I think I’ll leave it at that.
If you have any relevant advice or tips you would like to offer then feel free to post, i’m all ears as they say :wink:
Thanks in advance for your help,
Darragh -
I wouldn’t worry about large developers not wanting to take you on because of secrecy; any developer taking on either temporary or permanent staff will get them to sign an NDA. With this in mind, you’re probably much more likely to be taken on by a large studio which has the resources to cope with taking care of somebody on work placement. No doubt you’ll be going up against a load of other people who are also looking for work placement, so make sure that website is pretty damn good!
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I wouldn’t worry about large developers not wanting to take you on because of secrecy; any developer taking on either temporary or permanent staff will get them to sign an NDA. With this in mind, you’re probably much more likely to be taken on by a large studio which has the resources to cope with taking care of somebody on work placement. No doubt you’ll be going up against a load of other people who are also looking for work placement, so make sure that website is pretty damn good![/quote:76e91e89f6]
Thats not true, i would say that secrecy is one of the big reasons company dont take on students. So they sign an NDA, that still doesnt mean the student doesnt go blab about it to people. Its not like Sega\EA\Sony\Ubisoft are going to have much luck sueing a student for loss of earnings from a game whos details or material is leak. So the student is black marked by some companies?? Still a huge huge risk!
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I’d say your biggest problem is finding someone willing to employ you for a short period of time. No matter how good you are, you’re going totake several months to settle in and be fully productive, so for a grad to come in for 3 months in the summer, your prodcutivity is going to be very minimal. THAT is your main problem. I asked about summer placements here a while ago and was told flat out that we just don’t do them, it was just office policy.
I’d advise you to start looking very early, because its going to be a hard sell.
Oh, and you’ll probably not get any relocation if you get a job over here either. Hard enough to get it joining a company as a grad, let alone for placement. -
Thanks for your replies.
Thats not true, i would say that secrecy is one of the big reasons company dont take on students. So they sign an NDA, that still doesnt mean the student doesnt go blab about it to people. Its not like Sega\EA\Sony\Ubisoft are going to have much luck sueing a student for loss of earnings from a game whos details or material is leak. So the student is black marked by some companies?? Still a huge huge risk![/quote:30141c35ca]
Yeah thats pretty how I suspected how things work in reality, I mean i’ve no inside knowledge of what goes on in the industry, but i’d imagine they would be pretty guarded against letting information or material loose from work in progress titles. The idea of getting a student, who has nothing to loose anyway, to sign an NDA would be not sufficient enough to protect their secrets in my mind.
I don’t know how I can help get across that I will be trustworthy and not leak any information. Perhaps references from past employers might help- I mean I haved worked on tills and with money in my jobs so that may help a little. Also since i’m not doing this work experience off my own bat (its part of my education and sanctioned by Carlow IT) that might help raise their confidence a little as its my own interest to do well on my placement and get good marks for it. Still, its going to be very tough…
Honestly, sometimes I feel like i’m auditioning to become a pop-star or something and not a games developer.. Next thing they’ll have Mr Cowell out interviewing us, lambasting our game development and programming skills.. :lol:
Enough of my nonsense anyhow- back on topic. Any more suggestions or ideas ?
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I’d say your biggest problem is finding someone willing to employ you for a short period of time. No matter how good you are, you’re going totake several months to settle in and be fully productive, so for a grad to come in for 3 months in the summer, your prodcutivity is going to be very minimal. THAT is your main problem. I asked about summer placements here a while ago and was told flat out that we just don’t do them, it was just office policy.
I’d advise you to start looking very early, because its going to be a hard sell. [/quote:53947428bd]Thats a very good point you’ve hit on there, and something that I forgot to consider. Yeah its going to take a long time to get up to speed with what the team is doing, reading all the design artifacts, figuring out their code and classes and so forth… Thats always going to stand against me no matter what so I guess I am in for a very hard sell- like selling sand to the Arabs it will be… :) I guess my only real chance is to do an all out blitz and try as many companies as I can. Maybe, just maybe I might get lucky..
Oh, and you’ll probably not get any relocation if you get a job over here either. Hard enough to get it joining a company as a grad, let alone for placement.[/quote:53947428bd]
Yeah i’m pretty much not counting on them looking after all that, it would be nice- but to be honest i’d be thrilled if I could just find a placement itself. The rest can be organised in my own time.
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I’m in the same class as Darragh in IT Carlow and from speaking with the 3rd years, I can’t see many of us getting work placement. more and more Game Dev courses are being set up each year, especially in Britain. With all of these enthusiastic students beating their doors down, who are available for interviews, I cant see a companies hiring one of us based soley on a website (albiet, a very impressive one :P )
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Contacts….contacts will be very very important to you guys…
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Contacts….contacts will be very very important to you guys…[/quote:43c0303c88]
That unfortunately is where we are all screwed. :(
I don’t know anyone working within the industry myself and I doubt the a word of reference from our lecturers or the college will hold much weight with the HR departments of these companies. I really don’t know what I can do about this..
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think you’ll find that EA and Rare do industrial placement for students but the comptetion is really stiff. Alot of people are after these every year, because the ones who get it generally get offered jobs after they graduate.
As for knowing people.
You know kyto, omen and myself. I’ve had a look at your site there, and i got say some of the stuff is impressive. I especially like the car game, very retro Outrun feel to it. Possibly a very applicable demo to show a "driving studio" ;)
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Don’t EA actually do a graduate intake, academy I think they call it…where you get trained in for a year, don’t know if they do placements…
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Don’t EA actually do a graduate intake, academy I think they call it…where you get trained in for a year, don’t know if they do placements…[/quote:c5f8acb5ff]
I thought the academy was like a 1 year placement? maybe im wrong.
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Possibly a very applicable demo to show a "driving studio" ;)[/quote:a716300bc6]
Recruiting more "code monkeys" eh??
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Were always recruting coders\artist\designers etc. Plenty of work for the right people. 8)
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Thats not true, i would say that secrecy is one of the big reasons company dont take on students. So they sign an NDA, that still doesnt mean the student doesnt go blab about it to people. Its not like Sega\EA\Sony\Ubisoft are going to have much luck sueing a student for loss of earnings from a game whos details or material is leak. So the student is black marked by some companies?? Still a huge huge risk![/quote:c1dbd816a6]
But I can’t imagine any student that’s lucky enough and, more importantly, skilled enough to land a placement at a large studio being so foolish as to risk that opportunity and any future career by leaking info or materials. It’s not like this is just a summer job that they couldn’t really care less about – they’ll have worked very hard to get it and so will value it much more.The reason is rather that, as omen said, that a 3-month placement just isn’t long enough to get a useful amount of productivity out of a student after getting them up to speed. Just getting them up to the point that they can make any meaningful contribution in the first place requires a considerable amount of manpower and resources (recruiting, management, training on in-house tools, supplying equipment, IT support and so on) that alot of game teams just don’t have to spare. I’ve only met one placement student here so far, and he’s here for the majority of the year.
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Thats not true, i would say that secrecy is one of the big reasons company dont take on students. So they sign an NDA, that still doesnt mean the student doesnt go blab about it to people. Its not like Sega\EA\Sony\Ubisoft are going to have much luck sueing a student for loss of earnings from a game whos details or material is leak. So the student is black marked by some companies?? Still a huge huge risk![/quote:1a99a13b82]
But I can’t imagine any student that’s lucky enough and, more importantly, skilled enough to land a placement at a large studio being so foolish as to risk that opportunity and any future career by leaking info or materials. It’s not like this is just a summer job that they couldn’t really care less about – they’ll have worked very hard to get it and so will value it much more.The reason is rather that, as omen said, that a 3-month placement just isn’t long enough to get a useful amount of productivity out of a student after getting them up to speed. Just getting them up to the point that they can make any meaningful contribution in the first place requires a considerable amount of manpower and resources (recruiting, management, training on in-house tools, supplying equipment, IT support and so on) that alot of game teams just don’t have to spare. I’ve only met one placement student here so far, and he’s here for the majority of the year.[/quote:1a99a13b82]
As for leaking information this depends on the individual, but unfortunately the games industry is full of fanboys who dont intentionally mean to blab about a game but it happens because their excited about features etc. This can be really dangerous in close circles (for example over here, where theres like 10 games companies within a 30 mile radius and everyones on the look out for staff and skills).
From a pro game developers perspective you wouldnt be tempted to say a time because your pissing your career down the toilet, if you leaked info you’d never get employed again, its a major breach of trust.. From a students perspective, their like "feck i can get an normal i.t. job no biggie.." and "wow i impressed my fan boy buddies with inside knowledge arent i a legend. blah!". Unfortunately it happens!
I dont believe that placement time is a factor. Most i.t. companies who take placements only have them on average for 6 months, and it would be very pretentious to say that a placement student takes longer in a game studio to get up to speed than any other development team. Just like most things you start them on simple tasks and build up to more complexed stuff. The question of if their capable of getting up to speed will be answered in the interview. As for time and resources on interviewing and setting up training etc, thats HR and IT’s job! From i.t’s job thats about a day an from hr thats usually done a 6months to a year in advance.
Speaking from my own experiences.
When i started here i was productive from day one, fair enough i wasent making the contribution i am now, but still every bit helps. A good time for a student to join is probably towards the end of the game, where they could focus on bug fixes, for example "messed up text", simple menu glitches, incorrect OSDs etc. This teaches them the tools pipeline, while letting them see the results in a quick and productive manner. Thus boosting motivation! Then you can move them to more advanced stuff.
Lets face it in a placement of any sort its rare that a student makes a massive impact on a team (unless their that 1 in a million) during the 6months. The purpose of the placement is for them to learn on the job, learn social interaction and conflict management, as well as more importantly make contacts for future employment.
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I’ve had a look at your site there, and i got say some of the stuff is impressive. I especially like the car game, very retro Outrun feel to it. Possibly a very applicable demo to show a "driving studio" ;)[/quote:b8c53429af]
Thanks for the kind words peter!
Yeah it was definitely inspired a lot by a lot by Outrun and also Road Rash- which I played a lot of back in the days of the Genesis. Its a pity i didn’t get time to play around with it a little more and add more features and track elements into play, but thats the nature of college projects unfortunately; you have to compromise features for time and really focus in on whats important to the game.
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I dont believe that placement time is a factor. Most i.t. companies who take placements only have them on average for 6 months, and it would be very pretentious to say that a placement student takes longer in a game studio to get up to speed than any other development team. Just like most things you start them on simple tasks and build up to more complexed stuff….
….When i started here i was productive from day one, fair enough i wasent making the contribution i am now, but still every bit helps.[/quote:e323d72583]
My sentiments exactly: I have had many shitty jobs
(not in software dev. :( ), and anyone who doesn’t make at least the slightest contribution just gets the sack! Its not like companies are signing a contract saying you will get all 6 months of work, there just giving the poor sod a chance. They won’t miss you when your gone, they don’t NEED you. -
I sent you a PM.
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Thats not true, i would say that secrecy is one of the big reasons company dont take on students. So they sign an NDA, that still doesnt mean the student doesnt go blab about it to people. Its not like Sega\EA\Sony\Ubisoft are going to have much luck sueing a student for loss of earnings from a game whos details or material is leak. So the student is black marked by some companies?? Still a huge huge risk![/quote:5ad89a3aba]
I don’t think this is necessarily accurate. I’ve had a few programming summer jobs during college, all requiring at least some secrecy. One had a hefty scary NDA, the others just trusted me. I don’t think this is an unusual state of affairs.
OP, you should consider trying to get a programming job of some sort this summer, on your own (as opposed to as college placement). Not necessarily games related, but it’ll look good on your CV when you do go looking for a placement.
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OP, you should consider trying to get a programming job of some sort this summer, on your own (as opposed to as college placement). Not necessarily games related, but it’ll look good on your CV when you do go looking for a placement.[/quote:e5d45f670a]
Yeah, thats more or less what i’m thinking myself. I definitely have to try and do something worthwhile over the summer. I’m gonna need all the work experience and references I can get if I graduate and go out looking for work.
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Networking with people in general would be a good idea too.
Joining this site, going to the shindigs, is one part of the puzzle. There are other avenues to explore as far as contacts go, though.I feel stupid giving advice to you, though, Darragh – if any of us get a placement, it’ll be you. I guarantee it.
EDIT: Welcome, Murphy, you maniac :D.
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