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hi i was in a MOC interview yesturday for games design and i was being interviewed by two lecturers form a college. they were saying that i shouldn’t do a course that concentrates on Games design and do some thing different. i am not sure what to do. any advice would be good thanks
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Did they give any particular reason why?
The only question that matters is, “what do you want to do?”
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What exactly is this MOC?
Many people argue against a games design degree. They say that it’s not a ‘real’ degree and you should do something more traditional. I simply say that you shouldn’t do a games design degree because most of them in the UK are of a poor standard.
Are you sure that games design is what you want to do for a career? Make sure that you’re certain before doing a course that is so specialised.
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My first question would be “does their college run a games course?”, its also sadly true that many people in education don’t recognise how transferable a games education is, and how broad the field (and the skills within it) are.
It might also depend on what they believe a games course to be, they might well be behind the times and think that there are still only 1 year introductory courses out there.
Do you know anyone else who would have been interviewed for another specialist area? If so what were they told? If you know anyone who said they wanted to go into web design and they were recommended to do so, I’d put the response down to bias, either as a result of ignorance, or actual disdain towards the games industry.
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the guys were from Sligo IT. i was thick of doing a games design course that was three years in letterkenny. Sligo IT doesn’t offer games design, they mainly go software development, and other stuff like Database systems, but i just think they are not for me. i recognise that there isn’t a large demand in Ireland for games design and that there are not many jobs.
oh yeah MOC interviews are just practice interviews that use real employers. this just lets you improve how you sell your self in order to get a job.
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MOC = mock, at some point someone important must have gotten it wrong and we have an emperors new clothes situation where no one wants to say it to him/her.
Hmmm their college doesn’t do games design but a nearby rival does eh, I’m sure they were completely impartial there.
To be honest I’d sit down and have a good think about what I want to do within games design. If I can learn those skills well in a general course then I’d go for it, its just safer in a job security sense.
I want be a games designer, that is I want to (at the height of my career) be coming up with the concepts for games and designing (broadly) every aspect of it, before handing those areas over to specialists (lead programmers, lead artists, lead sound techs, level designers, marketing and EVERYTHING else that benefits from specialised knowledge) while I make sure the overall project stays true to its design. I don’t believe that can be done without knowing a little about every area at the least. Thats why I went for a games course. If I wanted to be a dedicated programmer I would have done computer science/applications to a degree level. Sound I would have trained as a sound engineer, art maybe NCAD or Dun Laoghaire.
I also have to put thought to how I’ll get to that position in my career. Very few companies will let you walk in as a graduate designer to an important position like the one I described. I will likely work in level design, quality assurance, concept development or a junior administrative position for years before I get my break.
What I’m trying to say is:
What do you want and how will you go about it?
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i recognise that there isn’t a large demand in Ireland for games design and that there are not many jobs.
[/quote:ad7b1bc34e]
In five years time there may well be more opportunities available. If not you could consider going across to Britain or even further if you can speak other languages.I always had careers advisers showing ignorance towards any entertainment sector. They said that no one would pay me all day to play games. I tried to get it through to them that I had no intention for anyone to pay me all day to play games, but that I wanted to be involved with the development of products that are now a multi-million pound industry. Of course they didn’t listen and continued with their policy of directing children towards ‘real’ jobs.
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You thinks thats bad? I was advised by neraly every one of my teachers not to do a Computer Science degree of any kind. “Theres no jobs” etc… was their reasoning. Complete rubbish to be honest. It wasnt until I went to the career guidance teacher at a different school that she looked ay my results, smiled, and asked the simple question “What do you want to do?”
Basically I chose to do Computer Applications in DCU because (although I knew in my heart I wanted to get into the games industry I also knew that its a tough area to crack and since I hadnt any real experience how did I know I would like it) a general computer degree will give you the freedom to persue most areas of computing when you graduate. If you really want to specialise in Game Design after you graduate then just go and do a Masters program in that area. Thats what I intend doing anyway…now that I know for definite what I want to do. :D
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As gizmo said,
What do you want to do?
Nothing anyone else tells you really matters. If you’re doing a course you don’t like, there’s not really much point in doing it ( plus it makes it twice as hard ). Do what you want to do.
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what i would like to do is modeling characters or something creative like that. yeah i think it is a good idea to to a general computing subject and then do a masters in games design. Letterkenny are offering a masters in game design and i seen the modules and i think that it is well led out. i was just wondering what would be the best course be to do before the masters.
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For programming, a general degree in computer science in Trinity, DCU, or if you are local, UCC or UL. For game design…Ballyfermot College seems to be the hot choice within Ireland. There are a few others too – check the courses section of the site.
Dave
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Modelling characters is an artists job.
Do you want to be a character artist?
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yeah i would like to do character modeling. i am going to download a modeling program called blender so i can try to learn how to do some modeling over the holidays
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Max (what alot of people use) and Maya (what I use) are also available in free learning editions or demo versions.
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XSI/SoftImage (what the rest of the people use) is also available in demo form too.
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could anybody give me any websites that would be good for learning modeling
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Has tonnes of video tutorials, though you have to que for them but they are free and of decent quality.
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Game design and art are two completely different boats altogether. If you’re going to be applying to UCAS, then you’ll have to make your mind up soon, but if you intend to go to a Irish university then you have a good while to decide what you want to do. Use that time to do a lot of research and find out what you really want to do. University is four years of your life. You need to be doing something you enjoy. Not only that, but the course you take at university will affect you for the rest of your life.
Do you have a list of courses you’re thinking about applying for?
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what i would like to do is modeling characters or something creative like that. yeah i think it is a good idea to to a general computing subject and then do a masters in games design. Letterkenny are offering a masters in game design and i seen the modules and i think that it is well led out. i was just wondering what would be the best course be to do before the masters.[/quote:955a37e6de]LYIT’s Msc is in development – NOT design
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i would like to do modeling more at the artist end. i am searching for courses today so i can fill in my UCAS form
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Ballyfermot College?
http://www.cdvec.ie/Ballyfermot.htm
Some lads on the board (e.g. Pete) went there. I always planned to go there …I may still do it *some time*
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Ballyfermot open day this friday……
you know, if you were interested or something like that
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is ballyfermot any good and where is it. i was looking at the courses from one of the links posted. i was lookingat at the modules that are in the HIGHER NATIONAL DIPLOMA IN COMPUTER GAMES DESIGN is would i be able to do a master after that. is the uni any good
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Ballyfermot is crap thats why we mentioned it ;)
Horses for courses I guess…
You mention the HIGHER NATIONAL DIPLOMA IN COMPUTER GAMES DESIGN…what is involved in that and will it give you your desired career (artist, no?)
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I would recommend the diploma in computer animation or whatever its called these days if its art you’re lookin for
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is ballyfermot any good and where is it. i was looking at the courses from one of the links posted. i was lookingat at the modules that are in the HIGHER NATIONAL DIPLOMA IN COMPUTER GAMES DESIGN is would i be able to do a master after that. is the uni any good[/quote:d48e023184]
From my understanding, Ballyfermot is a college outside of Dublin. Presuming the Irish system is similar, you won’t be able to do a masters degree after you complete a HND. You’ll have to ‘top-up’ your HND at a university. Then you can apply to masters courses.The course you mentioned is not specifically for artists. I know the college do have some artistic courses, so have a look at them.
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Ballyfermot is a college outside of Dublin.[/quote:ad757104a3]
Dublin 10, I used to live in Ballyfermot ;)
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Poor guy
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Ballyfermot is closer to the city centre than somewhere like Tallaght in the west, Dun Laoghaire in the south. Its practically on the luas line. The course covers every aspect of games design & development excluding perhaps localisation. I would not recommend it to an aspiring programmer unless that person already had studied programming, or intended to continue to another course after their 2 years in Ballyfermot.
I would recommend it over a computer animation course. I am not an artist (at least I wouldn’t consider myself one) but it little things like polycounts don’t seem to be addressed as much as they need to be (in an animation course) for videogames.
So yeah artist/designer/possible producer I think my course would work for you.
This year’s graduates will be the 2nd group to finish, last years rep. of Ireland team for Dare to be digital came from this course (with a programmer from elsewhere, sorry don’t know that detail) and few of the graduates have gone on to Carlow and other places for further education with the area
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Ballyfermot is a good college. Very laid back, probably a bit too laid back come to think of it.
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I can 100% dispute the laid back comment, seeing as how I have several thousand words of assignments due with the next few weeks, plus a pile of what you might call more practical work (in a games sense).
Depends on your strengths and the projects you set yourself, if you’re happy to earn simply a pass grade its a party, if you’re aiming for distinctions then be prepared for a tough work schedule
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Ballyfermot is the most laid back college I have ever set foot in. The lecturers are horizontal and the college life in general is very easy going.
I’m not saying its necessarily a very bad thing, but compared to other colleges it IS laid back. It is still a great college, especially for “new media”, but it could be a lot better.I enjoyed its laidbackedness – a lot, and I got distinctions in all but two subjects. But my mommy always told me I was “special”…… :P
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thanks for all your help everybody. i just got a letter from Stratfordshire university in England. i applied for a Games Course that they have there. they want me to go over their nexty week for interviews. i was wondering if anybody has heard anything good about it. i was in their website and i see that they have three games companies working with them. i can’t remember what they were but one of them was Blitz games
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You should have a good look around the blitz games site, they’ve got a section (or link to another site they run) about getting into the industry. Seem to be a nice bunch
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thanks for all your help everybody. i just got a letter from Stratfordshire university in England. i applied for a Games Course that they have there. they want me to go over their nexty week for interviews. i was wondering if anybody has heard anything good about it. i was in their website and i see that they have three games companies working with them. i can’t remember what they were but one of them was Blitz games[/quote:91b818e5a9]
Where? Did you mean Staffordshire? If so, it’s not really one of the best for game dev courses in England. In fact, it’s not really the best for much. The Times ranked it as 80th in the UK. I have a friend of mine who is about to go there. Call me old fashioned, but their low entrance requirements are also a little worrying.Have a look at places like Bournemouth, Teesside, Abertay and Swansea. They all have courses that seem to be well respected. Of course, no matter how good a course is, it’s not good unless YOU enjoy it. Look into Staffs, if you think you’ll like it then go along to the interview and find out more.
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Ronny is right, do some research
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Ballyfermot is the most laid back college I have ever set foot in. The lecturers are horizontal and the college life in general is very easy going.
I’m not saying its necessarily a very bad thing, but compared to other colleges it IS laid back. It is still a great college, especially for “new media”, but it could be a lot better[/quote:250abecc56]I also disagree with the laid back comment, having studied in Ballier on 2 different courses and also having studied similar in London. Choose your course carefully as sometimes politics can cloud what should be an a healthy learning experience, particularly if you are entering straight from school. Try and contact present or past pupils for their opinions, aswell as researching the tutors/lecturers and be prepared to do a lot of work yourself.
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Well maybe it was just my experience. Lecturers giving us half days, cutting classes short, giving us extra weeks to finish projects and assignments. That kind of thing. Not that I was complaining.
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With all the music, film, theatre and art courses going on the place does feel like an episode of fame some times (I wonder how many people are going to show their age my commenting on that statement), and as it is a “new media” college as you put it, it can seem laid back.
I think the simple fact that you’re doing a course sepcifically amined at something you have passion for can hide how much work you’re actually doing.
As for the short classes, and half days I can’t dispute that, if that was your experience then ok fair enough. I can tell you that now we have fairly strict attendance rules and that dropping below a given percentage of attendance (and its a pretty strict figure, that actually got stricter this year) per module for the year means an automatic fail regardless of performance. Also our tutors/lecturers tend to work bullishly at content at the start of a term and then leave us the classes towards the end for project time, which is appreciated considering the expense of the software we need.
DBH Nooptical I can’t for the life of me remember who you are, have we met, are we talking about the same course or were you in Ballyfermot more than 2 years ago and are talking about other sets of classes.staff entirely?
And oh yeah Pete’s comment about politics is one to note. I’ve attended Trinity and Ballyfermot and in both places politics within the course and from outside have affected my studies. Try being the class representative and having to argue with lecturers you’d much rather be going for pint with, but who now think you utterly hate the course :(
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I can tell you that now we have fairly strict attendance rules and that dropping below a given percentage of attendance (and its a pretty strict figure, that actually got stricter this year) per module for the year means an automatic fail regardless of performance.[/quote:43a83be6a0]
But if the lecturers mark you in the role book and then give you the rest of the class off then it doesn’t matter! ;)
I did the Ludo course a couple of years back. Great fun, but pretty laid back. For someone who had no experience with any of the applications then maybe it wouldn’t have seemed so easy going, but I had used Max and Photoshop for 4 years previously. Maybe I just wanted a break from work or something…. :P
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You have a role book in Ballyfermot ???
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You have a role book in Ballyfermot ???[/quote:9f0dddf337]
I did a portfolio preparation course there almost 10 years ago and there was a porter at the door to hand out punctuality slips if you were late!!!
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Hahaha!!
I thought the whole point of 3rd level education was that you were doing it to better yourself and as its not obilatory like school, attendence is your responsibility, as not attending will lead to you failing the modules.
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Think of it as if you missed too many labs in any other college, its a very practical course after all.
And I thought the point of 3rd level education is that passing was only an indictation that you had learned something, not the goal. The reputation of any course can’t be worth much if it possible to get your cert/diploma/degree/etc. by simply passing the exams. It has to be about the taking part, the research, and the projects rather than a 3/4 hour writing exercise at the end of it.
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In case its not obvious I really really dislike traditional exams as a method of evaluation. Utterly pointless as far as I’m concerned, I mean who is going to practice in their field with reference to hand anyway?
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I see your point nifty, but doing the projects and reports should be enough to prove you’ve taken part and qualified from the course. I wasn’t required to prove attendence in DCU or in Abertay.
Some modules didn’t require my attendence, like a lot of 1st year maths in DCU due to it being mainly leaving cert maths which i’d done before and maths in Abertay which was maths i’d done in DCU. Another case was 4th year AI in DCU in which the lecturer rambled on about nothing to do with the course for most of the time and then left at the end and the exam had the vaguest link to what he actually spoke about. -
In case its not obvious I really really dislike traditional exams as a method of evaluation. Utterly pointless as far as I’m concerned[/quote:1e46ae6241]
Can’t agree with you anymore. I was sick on the day I had two A Level exams and now that’s put me under a lot of pressure to pull my history grade up. I much prefer coursework as a method of evaluation. -
What is an A level anyway?
I have always wondered, but never actually bothered finding out!
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English/northern ireland version of the leaving cert? More in-depth but do less subjects.
Do Wales do A-levels?
Scotland does something different, highers and advanced highers. -
What is an A level anyway?
I have always wondered, but never actually bothered finding out![/quote:19c952ebc9]
Are you serious?? You’re the first person I’ve met in western Europe not to know what the A Levels are!English/northern ireland version of the leaving cert? More in-depth but do less subjects.
Do Wales do A-levels?
Scotland does something different, highers and advanced highers.[/quote:19c952ebc9]
Indeed. England and Northern Ireland use the A Level system. Wales use the Welsh baccalaureate to embrace the education system that the EU would like us all to use, and Scotland use the highers just to be plain difficult. -
Are you serious?? You’re the first person I’ve met in western Europe not to know what the A Levels are![/quote:dcdd874aa0]
I doubt anyone in France, Germany, Spain, Italy or Ireland for that matter knows what an A-Level is! They might have heard of it, but thats about all!
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Ok Omen with regard the maths course being a repitition of previous studies, the BTEC system that Ballyfermot follows uses an exemption clause to allow you to miss out areas you have already studied elsewhere.
As for your AI module, if the lecturer didn’t give relevant information, and the exam wasn’t connected very well to the course content how valid can a result in that module be? That is certainly one circumstance where I wold dimiss the exam result and ask to see examples of work.
Oh and Ronny I presume you meant you couldn’t agree with me more rather than you can’t agrre with me anymore? :)
And I of course meant to question who would work in their field without reference material rather than without.
The site has Gremlins, yeah, thats the problem. Not my fault at all. :oops:
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I doubt anyone in France, Germany, Spain, Italy or Ireland for that matter knows what an A-Level is! They might have heard of it, but thats about all![/quote:9534c7d22e]
Everyone I know in France is very familiar with the A Level system! Although it’s probably because they like to bash it so much…Oh and Ronny I presume you meant you couldn’t agree with me more rather than you can’t agrre with me anymore?[/quote:9534c7d22e]
I realised I’d written that as soon as I posted it. My brain doesn’t function too well on four hours of sleep! -
Nifty….the AI basically turned into Cognitive Science and there was no project. Then he got suspended and someone else had to set a paper, or something like that anyway….
I still don’t see the need for turned up to lectures. Labs yes, lectures no.
Especially in computer related courses where the majority of the notes are online and you go to lectures to find further learning of the notes. You can teach yourself the majority of things from studying the notes yourself. For example, in 3rd year we did an AI module and our project was to write a heuristic search algorithm in Java. We were told to look at the Java API and pointed towards a couple of the simplest tutorials. All the learning involved was completely independent.
Don’t get me wrong, I think you should attend, I just don’t think it should be compulsary, as you shouldn’t fail a course because you didn’t attend but gained the knowledge from the course when someone who who barely grasped it but attended all lectures gets a pass. -
Thats kind of my point, if you can get to a point where you can pass the exams without actually attending the lectures then why is being taught/examined at all?
And what I meant by the examples of work was rather than a college project, simply demonstrate with other work that you know the material. Not directed at you precisely, but more at the colleges themselves. Why waste the students time with spurious classes? and why waste the college funds on an unnecessary lecturer?
I’m beginning to realise you’re a poor conversation partner for my point. I would have thought most people go to college to learn rather than get accreditation for knowledge they already have, 4 years seems like a big chunk to cut out of your life for just a piece of paper or a few letters after your name.
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Ah, I see your point more clearly now.
Whilest in Abertay, I did attend about 95% of my lectures ( it snowed sometimes and it was a long walk… ). One of the main reason was the lecturers were good and showed a real interest in us and the course material was stimulating
In DCU, the class size was 100 over and I never even got to know a lecturer. It felt like the main job of the lecturers was to supply us with notes, go through them in lectures, that was about it, ( obviously some were better than others ).In a way I agree with you about colleges wasting your time with something you can teach yourselve, but in a way I think a programming course almost requires that to happen. There’s only so much you can be taught with coding, unless you actually do it yourself, you won’t take it in. There’s got to be a compromise in there somewhere :)
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Ah, I see your point more clearly now.
Whilest in Abertay, I did attend about 95% of my lectures ( it snowed sometimes and it was a long walk… ). One of the main reason was the lecturers were good and showed a real interest in us and the course material was stimulating
In DCU, the class size was 100 over and I never even got to know a lecturer. It felt like the main job of the lecturers was to supply us with notes, go through them in lectures, that was about it, ( obviously some were better than others ).[/quote:d06bae1da4]
There’s 98 universities in the UK. Guess where Abertay ranks in size? That’s right, 98th! That would explain why your lecturers could give such personal attention. Smaller lecture sizes is something I’m 100% in favour off, if the universities could afford it. Although, there’s no excuse for poor lecturers. I hate seeing tutors who are unenthusiastic towards their student’s growth. -
Unfortunatelly i don’t think thats still the case. A few years ago, there were 11 of us on the course. I think the intake is around 30+ now
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I doubt anyone in France, Germany, Spain, Italy or Ireland for that matter knows what an A-Level is! They might have heard of it, but thats about all![/quote:665cd74923]
Everyone I know in France is very familiar with the A Level system! Although it’s probably because they like to bash it so much…
[/quote:665cd74923]LOL, well, sorry I don’t know about A level.
It must be a metric system quirk, we Frenchies have, but for as far as I can remember, we used marks out of 10, then out of 20. That’s about it.
The most granularity in marks was in orthograph (spelling exercises) where you could have quarters of a point ducked depending on the severity of your error.
Always made much more sense to me than those american letters…
what the ffoh does anyone past the age of 3 wants to do with letters, anyway… you kids can’t handle the Maths?
I always thought it was just an excuse for the teachers not to give you details on why exactly you got a certain amount of point. Completely unprofessional, if you ask me.
:P -
By seperating grades into bands you allow for variety between examiners. A students final english exam might be valued at 71% by one examiner or 74% by another but they still get the same grade (a B1) and so the same standing when viewed by colleges.
But thats not what is meant by A levels here I believe. I think people are actually talking about the difference in state examinations. In Ireland we have our Junior certificate (taken at about the age of 15) examined on 9+ subjects usually, and our leaving certificate (taken at ages 17+ usually) examined on 6+ subjects. The A level is the English (and I believe northern Irish) equivalent to the leaving certificate but examined on typically fewer subjects but with greater detail on those subjects.
The leaving cert is a joke because it fuels an arbitrary “points” system for entering colleges, and the A-levels are under fire because too many people are getting top grades and therefore not differentiating between students of greater and lesser ability.
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I doubt anyone in France, Germany, Spain, Italy or Ireland for that matter knows what an A-Level is! They might have heard of it, but thats about all![/quote:30fa316250]
Everyone I know in France is very familiar with the A Level system! Although it’s probably because they like to bash it so much…
[/quote:30fa316250]LOL, well, sorry I don’t know about A level.
:P[/quote:30fa316250]
Bah, fine. If you live in Brittany and get the BBC, then you’ve heard of the A Level. I thought that was presumed when I said western Europe!What grades can you get in the Irish system? When I look at sites, I always see things like B2B2B2B2CC/B2B2B2B2B2. No idea what the heck it means. Figuring it out should be an A Level in itself.
As for A Levels being easier… I blame ‘those’ joke subjects. You all know what I’m talking about. People stopped taking maths, English and history a long time ago. Now it’s all general studies and the history of Mickey Mouse.
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I think they go as follows:
A1 90%+
A2 85%+
B1 80%+
B2 75%+
B3 70%+
C1 65%+
C2 60%+
C3 55%+
D1 50%+
D2 40%+
E 25%+
F 10%+
NG 0-10% -
A through D are passing grades, each sub divided into 3,2,1 for lower, mid and higher percentage grades, exception being A which is only divided into 2,1. E and F are fails there used to be a significance to getting an E rather than an F but I can’t remember what it was. bthere’s also NG – no grade for percentage results from 0 to 10% i believe.
So from bottom to top irish grading goes: NG, F, E, D3, D2, D1, C3, C2, C1, B3, B2, B1, A2, A1. Subjects can be taken at honours or pass level, getting a C3 or greater in an honours exam is considered an honours grade. Anything below that is considered a pass (apart from fails of course). Getting an A1 on a pass level exam is not considered getting an honours grade, despite persistent rumours to the contrary.
But it doesn’t stop there, oh no, our lovely country attaches a points value to each grade to compare students for college entry. Points range from 100 for an honours A1 to 5 for a pass D3, no points are awarded for a failing grade regardless of level. You only ever count your top 6 subjects.
Each college puts matriculation requirements on its courses and for general entry. For example a college might require 3 honours and 3 passes to be considered for any course, and for one of the honours to be in maths for its comp-sci course. Every student that meets these requirements is considered for a place, and then if there are for example 40 places in the course, the students with top 40 highest point totals are offered places. Some courses give points for portfolios, some for interviews, most don’t bother. If a place is refused or defered by a student, the place is offered to the student with the next highest point total. The relevenance of your subjects is not considered beyond matriculation, it is possible to get into a science course based on points from a music exam over your physics for example.
You apply using a list sytem, for a course specifically, not for a college in general. Bu thats a whole other post.
And yes I did start typing this before Skyclad replied :)
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