Home Forums #IrishGameDev in the News Dare Awards

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    • #5523
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Hard luck to Endearing Fragments and congratulations to Rule of Thumb!

      Rule of Thumb took home 3 awards:
      * Best Programmer – Alan McNicholas of Rule of Thumb
      * Best Team Players – Rule of Thumb
      * Best Use of Technology for Product Delivery – Rule of Thumb with their game Gal Ex: Spacial Delivery

      Congrats to all you guys for getting through the 10 weeks :)

    • #33121
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Was that a Freudian slip or has Endearing Fragments become the new nick-name of that team? I thought it was Enduring Fragments?

      *has been working 60-hour week*
      *is in need of sleep and tea*

    • #33122
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Ah yes…
      Sorry, lot on my mind at the moment.

    • #33124
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Well done to all the teams involved. Special congrats to Rule of Thumb!

      Just a thought… long hours seems to almost be encouraged by the competition. Surely we shouldn’t be teaching hopeful developers that working massive amounts of overtime is industry standard – even if it is for certain companies. If it could be imposed, a 40 hour week should be set as the maximum. It should be about who can make the best game within normal limits, not who can stay on the computer for the longest. Then again, just look at who sponsors the competition…

      I haven’t been involved with the competition, so perhaps someone experienced with it could comment.

    • #33125
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      40 hours in the weeks before release isn’t normal in the industry :)

      And I wouldn’t say they’re encouraged. 40 hour week is what you should be doing. Organisers leave after those hours, and you’re encouraged to be there within these hours as its when you can receive mentoring. Anything you do outside of those hours are personal preference.
      There is no one pushing you to work longer other than the team’s desire to do it themselves.

      Dropping tools at the end of the working days isn’t the norm in game dev, hell its not even the norm in any code dev. A demo is due and you have to get the work done to get it ready for the deadline imposed, if that means you need to schedule a few extra hours in the evening, well, welcome to the computer software industry.

    • #33126
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      congratulations to Rule of Tumb!!!

    • #33127
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Hard luck to enduring fragments, i really liked the look of their game and overall concept. Havnt seen much of Rule of thumbs entry, would be interesting to see a realtime video.

      Ronny, being a game developer isnt a typical 9-5 office job. In a intense competition such as dare to be digital, 9-9 is the norm. This is not only for constant work, most of the persons entering this competition are all students, so adapting to new technology is needed, tackling milestones and bumps in the development. As omen said, welcome to the computer software industry.

    • #33128
      Anonymous
      Inactive
    • #33129
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      if that means you need to schedule a few extra hours in the evening, well, welcome to the computer software industry.[/quote:87716e39aa]
      No – welcome to the computer games software industry. Everyone else writing code can quite happily go home at half five.

      Dave

    • #33130
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Believe me, I don’t ever intend on doing serious crunch unless its really required. The crunch I did on my first game was acceptable and I didn’t feel too hard done by. Sure, I’d love to be paid for the extra work I did, but currently thats not happening, so unless people really complain like EA Spouse, you’re going to have to accept some unpaid overtime and when it starts getting ridiculous, just go home. Remember, overtime is not obligatory in most place, its just expected. It can easily be refused, sure they may come at a promotional / salary expense, but whats more important?
      As for people being pressured into it..especially during something like Dare, they’re fools for caving intot he pressue in my opinion. :)
      Catch me doign a 70 hour week and I’ll buy all the drinks for everyone at the next shindig ;)

      No – welcome to the computer games software industry. Everyone else writing code can quite happily go home at half five[/quote:e235b813ef]
      I’d argue that point. Just like in game dev, there are some good and some bad companies to work for. All depends on the people who set your deadlines. In game dev, its publishers and hence the ludicrousness…

    • #33134
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Catch me doign a 70 hour week and I’ll buy all the drinks for everyone at the next shindig ;)
      [/quote:96415a1a3b]
      Yet you’re never able to make it to shindigs. This must be due to a lack of time or money. So are we to assume that you’re secretly being paid peanuts and stuffed into a cubicle all day and night? :D

      You’re right though. The challenge is to get to a state where overtime isn’t expected so easily. Willingness of developers to work a little extra for free should be appreciated, not exploited until every ounce of passion has been sucked from their veins.

      The problem is that there are countless number of kids who will blindly work all night because game dev isn’t seen as a ‘normal’ job. Then we have a scenario where our talent leaves after seven years and we’re left with masses of graduates who don’t have the experience to create a blockbuster.

      Take other creative industries. JK Rowling would never have created Harry Potter if she packed it in after a decade. I can’t remember any other examples right now, but it’s safe to say that many legendary movies and books wouldn’t have been made of the talent had been spat out after a few years. We would be missing out on so much. We could have had many epic games, but the people who would have made them are working for some bank now.

      There’s a change taking place in the industry right now. Publishers are less able to exploit developers. There’s still a long way to go though. But to come back to the original point, we’re not going to get anywhere if our students are learning that 70 hour weeks are just part of the job. Some Dare students seem to relish the fact that they can work till they drop. EA executives must have a huge collective smile on their faces.

    • #33135
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      bullshit..
      9-5 should be the norm for games development nowadays if your using your time correctly. perhaps a little extra towards the end. but if your working 9-9 all through the cycle, your production process is crap. This long hours crap should be beginning to die down.

      we work 9-5 most days and a little extra towards deadlines (week of deadline) and we’re hiting milestones bang on. Good producers and good coders\artists.

      Also we introduced a policy recently that if you choose to do overtime you get paided for it (good pay too, along with grub etc). Apparently a first for the games industry. Go Sega!

    • #33137
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Well done to the Irish teams for completing Dare. It was great to see your games at the afters, very impressive work!

    • #33140
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      congrats again to both irish teams , looking forward to seeing the vids and getting a play.

    • #33141
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      a big congrats to Rule of Thumb for taking home so many well-deserved awards – and commiserations to Enduring Fragments who came close in one or two categories but just missed the mark on the day

      There was a big improvement in the quality of the Irish teams output this year over previous years – which was heartening to see

      Be interesting to see how we fare next year when there will be close to 40 teams in the final (as opposed to the more usual 7/8) as Dare to be Digital moves to the franchise model across four regions (South England, North England, Scotland and Ireland). There will be 4 – 6 teams from Ireland participating.

    • #33143
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      we work 9-5 most days and a little extra towards deadlines (week of deadline) and we’re hiting milestones bang on. Good producers and good coders\artists[/quote:c1aaf13f3a]nice to see producers getting a bit of good press for a change!

      BUT

      in fairness, as Peter points out, it takes effort by the whole team to keep the hours down and the deliverables in track. The best planning and management in the world can’t make up for a developer (artist, composer or programmer) being bad at estimates, going off track while seeking to write the perfect algorithm or rigging the most realistic model.

      At the end of the day it’s not the amount of work you put in, or the amount of passion/enthusiasm the developers have that makes great games, but the quality of the decisions made along the way – something we’re at pains to stress to the Dare teams (as well as our own teams, of course).

    • #33146
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I’d argue that point. Just like in game dev, there are some good and some bad companies to work for. All depends on the people who set your deadlines. In game dev, its publishers and hence the ludicrousness…[/quote:f28b24d8f8]
      The issue is rather than in the games industry, employees expect that part of the job will involve overtime, and many managers are only too happy to take advantage of this. In the non games world, no-one expects to work past 5.30 – sure it happens at crunch, but you dont start the job expecting to be overtiming on a regular basis, and the mentality is “enjoy the job and enjoy the rest of your day” rather than “enjoy the job, which is your day”.

      Part of the problem of the games industry is employees accepting that overtime is part of the job – it’s not, it should be an occasional thing where the company recognises the additional effort put in by staff on the company’s behalf.

      Dave

    • #33147
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      ya a good producer does help to organise the objectives and make sure their achievable. Anybody can make pie-in the sky estimates. My one at present (former producer on burnout revenge,hitman etc) is using this methodology called scrum where we all focus on achieving set goals (make the sky blue, make that character do this, blah..) Then short meetings are done each morning to discuss progresss. so nobody is going down the wrong road for long than one day. Thus keeping everyone focused, and also at the end of a “sprint” ( 6-8 weeks), you can clearly see what goals were meet and what ones were not..

    • #33150
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Ronny, where did you get the “talent leaves after 7 years” stat? I wouldn’t put much by it, if I were you. I’ve only seen one person get disillusioned with games and he’s still comtemplating a move to something else or not and he’s been making games for about 15 or more years.
      You cite it being different in the book and movie industry. Its not, people always get disillusioned with their work. How many people leave these industries within the first 7 years? Quiet a few I’d imagine.

      Oh to have a good producer……

    • #33151
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Ronny, where did you get the “talent leaves after 7 years” stat? I wouldn’t put much by it, if I were you.[/quote:fe30592e7c]

      http://www.igda.org/qol/whitepaper.php

      ‘Only 3.4% said that their coworkers averaged 10 or more years of experience.’

      Thats not the exact quote, but it is along the lines of what Ronny was getting at, I believe?

    • #33152
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      As omen said, welcome to the computer software industry.[/quote:fa1c6c2961]

      I’ve had experiene in a few different companies within the computer software industry.

      Sure, like Omen says, when there’s a deadline, people will go the extra mile to get the work done.
      But while some work companies longer hours than others, I have to say that based on my subjective experience, and based on what I’ve heard, games software seems to [encourage|request|require|demand] considerably longer hours at considerably worse pay – overall – than the software industry in general.

      The best planning and management in the world can’t make up for a developer (artist, composer or programmer) being bad at estimates, going off track while seeking to write the perfect algorithm or rigging the most realistic model.[/quote:fa1c6c2961]

      I agree with this statement.
      However, developers made bad estimates, and strive for perfection, in other industries which appear to have much more reasonable working hours than the games industry does.
      So there must be something else that’s different?

    • #33153
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Thats not the exact quote, but it is along the lines of what Ronny was getting at, I believe?[/quote:7c88f48ba2]
      That’s probably where I got it from. I’ve seen a few sources quoting similar figures. The 7 year turnover is the one I remember most.

      As for the book/movie comparison. It was written by Greg Costikyan in an article which I’m pretty sure was for The Escapist. He argued the point a lot better than I could. Will try to dig it up as it makes for very interesting reading. There’s a vital difference in growing bored of your work and having the creativity driven out of you.

    • #33156
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I remember reading something like that about JK Rowling and Speilberg, but I took it as poppy-cock to tell the truth. There’ll always be people in every industry that go the extra mile and they become legends in their field.

      games software seems to [encourage|request|require|demand] considerably longer hours at considerably worse pay[/quote:edf7c50dc9]
      Encourage / Request – yes, you can still say no.
      Require / Demand – Erm, you’re working for a stinking company, find someone else to work for. Lots of people don’t do this and then they complain about it, but put up with it.

      Oh and as for pay…you get paid extra in other dev jobs because of the mundanity of the job, I think the diversity in games programming makes up for it, and I also think I’m getting paid quiet enough money. Sure more is always good, but I think my wage is very reasonable. Its just a personal opinion, if I was in it for the money, I’d be doing something else…

    • #33157
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      games software seems to [encourage|request|require|demand] considerably longer hours at considerably worse pay – overall – than the software industry in general.[/quote:bb67b8b7b6]we should probably not generalise as widely as we are. Not all companies in the games industry operate like this, ane even when they do it’s rarely all the time (although, like many of you I have experienced and have heard of places where it can be). It’s changing, but much slower than many of us would like. Simple answer is to check the QOL (Quality of Life) policy with your perspective employer. If they don’t have one, or worse, don’t what it is, then you might want to re-think your position

      However, developers made bad estimates, and strive for perfection, in other industries which appear to have much more reasonable working hours than the games industry does.
      So there must be something else that’s different?[/quote:bb67b8b7b6]sure there is – the economics.

      Like all entertaiment industries, games are very, very competitive and increasingly so. Some companies exploit their developers in order to be competitive or to make a ridiculous movie release date (for example). Getting your developers to work 10/12 hrs per day, gets an extra 10 – 20 hrs out of them per week. Shite, I know, but it does go on.

      I have turned down projects (and would do so again) rather than try and make a ridiculous deadline.

      There is one other side to it though… re: the quote above re: developers and bad estimates – many of these bad practices have simply become entreched in the industry over years and years of mis-management, i.e. developers stepping up to manage teams and projects when they have no training or experience in the area. This legacy still affects the industry today, although it has been changing over the past 5/6 years

      For example:
      Recently while speaking to a 20+ year veteran of the industry (name omitted to spare his blushes) about planning/managing his workload he refused to cooperate on planning out his deliverables or provide a rough timeframe, saying: “the games industry doesn’t work like that”. It’s that kind of immature crap that created the mess in the first place

      The three ingredients vital to mitigating excessive overtime, etc, are:
      1 – good, expereinced producers
      2 – solid, repeatable and scalable dev process
      3 – whole team buys in to QOL

    • #33161
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The three ingredients vital to mitigating excessive overtime, etc, are:
      1 – good, experienced producers
      2 – solid, repeatable and scalable dev process
      3 – whole team buys in to QOL[/quote:063f36dcf0]

      Yay for that.
      I am a student and my experience IS that people in my position ARE being expected to pull ridiculous hours (read 50-60 a week) if we are to get anywhere within this Industry (i.e. have a career).
      These last few weeks I have been so worn down (by the work and my concerned friends) that I am reconsidering whether I really want to have a career in this industry… I am certainly looking at the entire Development cycle in a far more critical manner than I used to.

      I think Idora is right – this industry needs good producers.
      But I’d like to add that perhaps what we really need is veteran developers with Business sense.
      Something that could be achieved if certain companies (that make the headlines a lot) (i.e. EA) were to start running partially-funded\fully-funded training schemes for veteran developers and potential managers that will send these people back into College on a part-time basis to give them the proper up-to-date, industry-standard Managerial training they will need to set & make realistic deadlines.

      From what I have seen, we either have people on top who have no sense of games but a great sense of business, or people who are incredibly creative and brilliant at developing – but have no sense of deadlines.

      :? Then again – maybe I am just in desperate need of sleep! :wink:

    • #33163
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      i think alot of the problems and ive said it before is that bedroom programmers setup a company off the back of a few z80\ games and they suddenly think they can manage ppl\making games\money\pitches etc.i would say that only about 5% of these guys can actually do it successfully, they are developers at heart not managers, with no business training or previous business dealings!!!!

      Being a graduate (well in the industry a year now and have been luckly enough to fast track a good bit at sega(joined at a good time) in that im getting to work on cool shit and not doing grad mundane shit, like youd’ do for a while at other companies.). I think from a graduates perspective its a great time to join the industry, hours arent much longer than any other i.t. job, pay is decent (but be warned some wages differ dramatically from place to place) you get to work on cool hardware and your one of the first to play with ps3’s :) Also means if you working on ps3 now, your gold for the next 5-10 years or the console lifecycle.

    • #33168
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Don’t be put off by the amount of work you put in during Dare. Dare is a project where its all about you showing off what you can do and you put the extra effort in.
      Working stupid hours is something you shouldn’t be doing in the workplace.

    • #33172
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      sure there is – the economics.
      Like all entertaiment industries, games are very, very competitive and increasingly so.[/quote:e2589b7b20]

      Yes, the economics of the situation is definitely worth thinking about
      Even from a simple supply and demand point of view; there’s a lot of people who want in to the games industry, a large supply of potential employees, if you will, and this drives wages and working conditions down.

      This is arguably analogous to modern day sweat shops, or industrial revolution coal mining conditions – when you have so many people wanting so few jobs, employers can get away with treating them worse.

      A pattern that sometimes has been used to combat this situation in the past is to unionise – but this doesn’t seem to be happening much in the games industry. I am not sure why not, as some of other entertainment fields being cited here (eg movies) are comparitively highly unionised.

      As it stands, some companies in the industry have highly lucrative business models, making substatial profits while rewarding employees minimally. And the employees continue to put up with it while they are young and naive, then leave to get a better job – at least this is a picture painted by many sources.

      People are willing to make sacrifices to do what they love, but you’d think developers would be smart enough to realise that by individually competing so hard with each other, and being willing to accept any conditions to get the job they want, they are hurting the group as a whole.
      Other groups of employees, often with less education, have realised this in the past.

      I think Idora is right – this industry needs good producers.
      But I’d like to add that perhaps what we really need is veteran developers with Business sense.
      Something that could be achieved if certain companies (that make the headlines a lot) (i.e. EA) were to start running partially-funded\fully-funded training schemes for veteran developers and potential managers that will send these people back into College on a part-time basis to give them the proper up-to-date, industry-standard Managerial training they will need to set & make realistic deadlines. [/quote:e2589b7b20]

      I actually amn’t sure how it would be in EA’s interest to do this, as they seem to do very well out of their current model. More educated, vetern, expensive developers might mean less profit.

      There is one other side to it though… re: the quote above re: developers and bad estimates – many of these bad practices have simply become entreched in the industry over years and years of mis-management, i.e. developers stepping up to manage teams and projects when they have no training or experience in the area. This legacy still affects the industry today, although it has been changing over the past 5/6 years [/quote:e2589b7b20]

      This situation also exists within the larger software industry, and yet there are considerably less problems there than in games.

      Many of the problems are from clueless mismanagement of developers. But also some are from a calculated desire to squeeze more from the given allocation of developers, to meet business goals, a problem which can only exist because of the situation games developers created for themselves by being willing to work bad conditions…
      I think this is in line with what Idora is saying here:

      Getting your developers to work 10/12 hrs per day, gets an extra 10 – 20 hrs out of them per week. Shite, I know, but it does go on. [/quote:e2589b7b20]

      i think alot of the problems and ive said it before is that bedroom programmers setup a company off the back of a few z80\ games and they suddenly think they can manage ppl\making games\money\pitches etc.i would say that only about 5% of these guys can actually do it successfully, they are developers at heart not managers, with no business training or previous business dealings!!!! [/quote:e2589b7b20]

      Again, this happens a lot in the larger software industry, but there’s a lot less problem with overwork and exploitation there. Because it’s less of a vocation, and if you try exploit your developers, many of them will leave.

      You also paint a grim picture about the management skills of techies that end up in more management roles. It should be pointed out that there are many famous counter examples to this, not least that of google.

    • #33173
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The three ingredients vital to mitigating excessive overtime, etc, are:
      1 – good, experienced producers
      2 – solid, repeatable and scalable dev process
      3 – whole team buys in to QOL[/quote:b5aa3d3b81]

      And I would say:
      4 – A business model that can succeed without taking 150% from the developers
      5a – A desire of upper management to sacrifice profits in return for a higher QOL for the workers.
      OR
      5b – Developers who won’t work with crap QOL.

      (maybe you covered 5b in your point 3, if so, then sorry about making a redundant point)

      tbh, in the games industry I think 4&5 are the bottleneck at least as often as 1,2,3
      Thats essentially the thrust of what I’m saying here.

    • #33174
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Even from a simple supply and demand point of view; there’s a lot of people who want in to the games industry, a large supply of potential employees, if you will, and this drives wages and working conditions down. [/quote:80b97c26a4]
      Don’t know if i agree with this.
      Yes, there are a lot of people who want in to the games industry, but how many of them are sufficiently qualified? Companies are pretty picky about who they employ as someone below par will falter pretty quickly in this trade due to the demands.

      Also, when I was home a few weeks ago, I noticed an article in the paper saying that the average wage of an actor is Ireland is 5K. 5K!! They do it for the love of the job. We get paid significantly higher. I wouldn’t moan about the wages.

    • #33175
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      This situation also exists within the larger software industry, and yet there are considerably less problems there than in games.[/quote:ac6f6d8e19]True, but then most general software projects are not nearly as complex or complicated as games, nor are the business models as hard on the developer

      Don’t get me wrong, I am in NO way condoning the conditions many (but by no means, all) games developers have to work under. I’m simply trying to provide a backdrop as to why things are the way they are

    • #33180
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Don’t know if i agree with this.
      Yes, there are a lot of people who want in to the games industry, but how many of them are sufficiently qualified? Companies are pretty picky about who they employ as someone below par will falter pretty quickly in this trade due to the demands. [/quote:080faea4e4]

      Loads are succifiently qualified – I mean, otherwise, wages would be much higher, right? Supply and demand, no?
      If there wasn’t enough sufficiently qualified people then games programmers would naturally get paid more – as it is, they get paid less, certainly on an hourly basis, than their general software programming counterparts, right?

      True, but then most general software projects are not nearly as complex or complicated as games, nor are the business models as hard on the developer [/quote:080faea4e4]
      Wouldn’t agree with this, but don’t have evidence to back the feeling up.
      As overall projects games are big, but as software projects, less so – the software parts of many games aren’t that big, particularly with licensed middleware etc
      There are a lot of software projects out there with more than, say, 15 coders on them, which would be a good number for a game, right?

      Sure, some general software is smaller – once off business apps for example, but so are many games, for portable or mobile.

      Don’t get me wrong, I am in NO way condoning the conditions many (but by no means, all) games developers have to work under. I’m simply trying to provide a backdrop as to why things are the way they are[/quote:080faea4e4]
      Ok, understood.

      I just don’t understand why conditions *continue* to be this way though… …and why developers continue to put up with it… surely they can see that just because you really like a particular type of job doesn’t mean you should accept crappy conditions to do it…

    • #33191
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Loads are succifiently qualified – I mean, otherwise, wages would be much higher, right? Supply and demand, no?
      If there wasn’t enough sufficiently qualified people then games programmers would naturally get paid more – as it is, they get paid less, certainly on an hourly basis, than their general software programming counterparts, right?[/quote:3582b6352b]
      You’d be suprised…
      There are lots of areas of expertise. Try finding a good low level PS2 programmer and I bet you’ll have to look hard. Try finding a ‘good’ graduate and again, you look hard (in this case mainly because there are lots with no experience). There are so many disciplines you can specialise in and a team can only take so many people, so you’ve got to be an exact fit in specialism or capable of a very broad range…
      Being ‘qualified’ doesn’t mean you’re able to get a job easily in this game.

    • #33193
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      You’d be suprised…
      There are lots of areas of expertise. Try finding a good low level PS2 programmer and I bet you’ll have to look hard. Try finding a ‘good’ graduate and again, you look hard (in this case mainly because there are lots with no experience). There are so many disciplines you can specialise in and a team can only take so many people, so you’ve got to be an exact fit in specialism or capable of a very broad range…
      Being ‘qualified’ doesn’t mean you’re able to get a job easily in this game.[/quote:03f2fd1bf5]

      Still, if there are so few people that are really ‘qualified’, why are the conditions/wages so bad? Surely the scarity would drive up prices? Bit of a simple argument I know, but it usually holds true.

      Is it perhaps that when needing a good low level PS2 programmer, if you are a big software house, the best way to do it is just take in (cheap) grads with no experience and train them up?
      This seems to be what the big software houses are doing, with induction programs.

      Still I do take your point about specialisation…
      but when I think of the general software industry, and think of, for example, DBAs as a specialisation (hard to get good ones, it’s very specialised skills, like low level ps2 coding) they consequently get very high salaries.

    • #33194
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      *shrug*
      Would you like to be a DBA, I know I wouldn’t…
      Mundane job vs diverse job, thats how i look at it. If it means I don’t earn huge amounts of money, I still think i’m getting paid well.

    • #33195
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I just don’t understand why conditions *continue* to be this way though… …and why developers continue to put up with it… surely they can see that just because you really like a particular type of job doesn’t mean you should accept crappy conditions to do it…[/quote:c661edeada]

      As an aspiring graduate – there is a shroud of “specialness” surrounding the Games Industry. I think a lot of young people might be willing to put up with the hard work and the relative-to-the-rest-of-the-IT-sector low pay because they feel that they are somehow “priviliged” to work in this Industry.
      In the gap that exists between becoming a specialist, and being a hardworking but otherwise inexperienced graduate endeavouring to specialise (but in desperate need of a break to do so) – there is lots and lots of room for, what some would refer to as, exploitation.

    • #33197
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Again, if you’re working under crappy conditions for a company, quit. Don’t put up with it – there are lots of good companies out there.
      As for exploiting graduates…would say you’re going to be alright, in fairness you’ll be the least experienced with the game engine and so will be able to contribute least for the first 6 months or so, so overtime shouldn’t be forced upon you :)

    • #33198
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      *shrug*
      Would you like to be a DBA, I know I wouldn’t…
      Mundane job vs diverse job, thats how i look at it. If it means I don’t earn huge amounts of money, I still think i’m getting paid well.
      [/quote:058c06d649]

      That’s fair point. You seem on top of things, and to be conciously making the relevant decisions – was thinking more along the lines of those in EAspouse-like conditions, hope things improve for them.

      As an aspiring graduate – there is a shroud of “specialness” surrounding the Games Industry. I think a lot of young people might be willing to put up with the hard work and the relative-to-the-rest-of-the-IT-sector low pay because they feel that they are somehow “priviliged” to work in this Industry.
      In the gap that exists between becoming a specialist, and being a hardworking but otherwise inexperienced graduate endeavouring to specialise (but in desperate need of a break to do so) – there is lots and lots of room for, what some would refer to as, exploitation.[/quote:058c06d649]

      At least when you are aware of the situation, and can think about it critically and make the decisions with more knowledge of the consequences, I imagine that makes you a lot less likely to be ‘exploited’.

    • #33199
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      That’s fair point. You seem on top of things, and to be conciously making the relevant decisions – was thinking more along the lines of those in EAspouse-like conditions, hope things improve for them. [/quote:fea9538553]
      I think EA Spouse has helped everyone to wisen up about the whole situation. Things haven’t really changed much yet over here in the UK except for people’s attitude. Sega now pay for over-time, that’s going to catch on because they’re stealing people left right and center. In the US, I think things have changed more-so.

    • #33200
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Sega now pay for over-time, that’s going to catch on because they’re stealing people left right and center. In the US, I think things have changed more-so.[/quote:8e13acbcb5]

      That’s great news!
      As for the likelihood of me being ‘exploited’ (it’s a harsh word to use, I know) – you’re right I am aware of the situation and thus the working conditions I put up with are as much of a personal choice as anything else. :wink:

    • #33225
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      By the way guys, just to put this into perspective, I’ve been thinking about this whole area a lot for the past month, but didn’t want to mention anthing about it until now.
      I decided a while ago that my job at Rockstar Leeds wasn’t for me. Luckily I was still in my probationaty period, so on Friday, I handed in my notice and I am currently unemployed, hurray! But its not as bad as it sounds as I kept a close contact with people at Core Design, and I shall be returning to my old job in a week’s time working under the ownership of Rebellion this time.
      Make sure you enjoy the job you work in, otherwise its pointless :)

    • #33226
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Shame to hear the Rockstar gig didnt turn out for ya, hopefully you’ll pick up something that suits you more soon.

    • #33227
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      We’ll get you yet Damien here at the driving studio. Might have missed out this time but eventually. We’ve got a few of ye now.. mwahahahahah.

      Best of look back at core.

    • #33231
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Still, if there are so few people that are really ‘qualified’, why are the conditions/wages so bad? [/quote:6c5b3dd68a]They’re not! This is a huge misconception about the industry in general. Salaries and benefits are pretty low at entry level, but after approx. 4 – 6 yrs experience, they begin to be quite competitive, becoming quite generous at senior level.

      See the Game Developer mag/Gamsutra salary surveys for more info. They are usually published annually in the Sept or Oct issue

    • #33232
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      i would agree with this comment from tony, people who are in senior roles are making very good salaries. Often alot better than people with similar years experience in standard development jobs (obviously the exception being investment banking developers in big cities like new york and london). Also alot of these guys have bonuses etc always so they do very well indeed. only 3 more years for me then :(

    • #33238
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I’m pretty happy with my wages….so I can’t wait to be senior :0)

    • #33243
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Uk starting wages seem pretty good to me…. certainly in comparison to what I would expect to earn in other fields

    • #33248
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      hi guys.. thanks to all that congratulated us and again comiserations to Enduring Fragments, excellent bunch of guys that i would be more than happy to work along side with in the future.

      i admit i did pull a few extra hours, but only because this was such a short deadline and i was very passionate about the project that we were undertaking and thankfully it paid off in the long run.
      we knew that there was no extra pay or thanks for staying those extra hours, but hey.. you’re there for the 10 weeks with little else to do or no other current ties, so we just put all our spare time into productive use.

      i do agree with a lot of you saying about the QoL in the games industry should become a standard 9-5 with overtime being brought in to account as well, but as the games industry still is relatively in its infancy it may take a while for this to occur.

      but at the end of the day i hope that you would all agree that we would have to put in that little bit of extra work to get ireland significantly on the map as a place for the games development industry to boom properly
      (especially in the North *cough *cough).

      cheers

      Willie 3D modeler & Animator – Rule of Thumb

    • #33253
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      but at the end of the day i hope that you would all agree that we would have to put in that little bit of extra work to get irelan[/quote:f82cd495c2]
      That perspective, irrespective of its validity, is why managers are able to force 60 hours a week to be the norm.

      Dave

    • #33254
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I decided a while ago that my job at Rockstar Leeds wasn’t for me. Luckily I was still in my probationaty period, so on Friday, I handed in my notice and I am currently unemployed, hurray![/quote:ce2ce98d86]

      Lies…you were pushed…admit it.

      I told you that habit of yours would get you into trouble.

    • #33255
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      but at the end of the day i hope that you would all agree that we would have to put in that little bit of extra work to get ireland significantly on the map as a place for the games development industry to boom properly[/quote:57d6efc38d]
      That perspective, irrespective of its validity, is why managers are able to force 60 hours a week to be the norm.[/quote:57d6efc38d]Well, we do have to be realistic at the same time. Overtime per se isn’t evil… just how it’s managed and the reason its necessary in the first place

    • #33256
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Well, we do have to be realistic at the same time. Overtime per se isn’t evil… just how it’s managed and the reason its necessary in the first place[/quote:efbe9685ff]
      Exactly. For the games industry to boom here, we need well managed companies, not well meaning but exploitable employees.

    • #33257
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Well, we do have to be realistic at the same time. Overtime per se isn’t evil… just how it’s managed and the reason its necessary in the first place[/quote:a71875a6eb]
      Exactly. For the games industry to boom here, we need well managed companies, not well meaning but exploitable employees.[/quote:a71875a6eb]couldn’t agree more

    • #33473
      Anonymous
      Inactive
    • #33504
      Anonymous
      Inactive
    • #33505
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Think about what you’re missing. You don’t have time to go running and exercise, socialise with friends, enjoy your hobbies, join a club or even get a girlfriend! Who are you supposed to meet someone if you’re not out of the office until evening time? The only way is the pub. That’s okay for a lot of people, but it’s not how I approach women.

      [/quote:e1e326e3d5]

      Have you been stalking me Ronny ? :lol:

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