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It could either be more experimental game demos from the main developer or external smaller studios could pay a fee to have their mini-games shipped with the blockbuster title, thus gaining exposure[/quote:7a57327d62]
No, to both.
1) Experiemental game demos…no way, you know how secretive the industry is. If a company as a decent idea, they’re not letting anyone else see anything even vaguely close to it in case someone releases something similar based on it.
2) Smaller studios paying to get shipped with… Then consumers who buy the main game will associate the mini-game with the developer or ( more likely these days ) the publisher. If the mini-game isn’t received well that would reflected badly on said publisher/developer. Thats an added risk that I can’t see publishers wanting to take. -
1) Experiemental game demos…no way, you know how secretive the industry is. If a company as a decent idea, they’re not letting anyone else see anything even vaguely close to it in case someone releases something similar based on it. [/quote:9f3f2c22ee]
But then, why don’t such companies attempt to prevent me-too games that eventually make their decent idea a genre?
2) Smaller studios paying to get shipped with… Then consumers who buy the main game will associate the mini-game with the developer or ( more likely these days ) the publisher. If the mini-game isn’t received well that would reflected badly on said publisher/developer. Thats an added risk that I can’t see publishers wanting to take. [/quote:9f3f2c22ee]
But the reverse is equally true.
Developers/publishers have a vested interest in gaining customer feedback to answer the ‘where’s the next fad coming from’ $64k question. If they get accurate data and for free (smaller studios paying…), so much the better.
And since it’s those same developers/publishers who decide what eventually goes on the B-side, it’s in their interest to be cautiously selective, ensuring in the process that customers get much better value for money (which may justify premium prices over and above that of a single-sided AAA title in some instances).I actually see this idea -which is absolutely grand, so much so I can’t believe nobody’s thought about it before!- as a particularly efficient way to solve a lot of unanswered questions in respect of next-gen development costs and models:
_get early proof of concept, cheaply, before you invest further in the development
_get proof of interest to submit to your investors (or court new investors with)
_justify increasing the std retail price (:eek: – yep, I said that)
_give ideas-rich/$-poor start-ups a shot at the Real Deal (as that’s going to become so much more difficult with next-gen budgets)
etc, etc.Bril’ idea – Bril’ thread :D
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Sorry Omen but I can’t help feeling like there was just more than one assumption made there ;)
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But then, why don’t such companies attempt to prevent me-too games that eventually make their decent idea a genre?[/quote:bf952f641d]
You make an original game, you pay to have it released on a disk, and suddenly a big developer likes it, steals your idea turns it slightly and bang, they make millions and you paid for them to do it. -
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I’m talking about how small developers would see it, so these assumptions are things that they would have to factor into risks into whether this worth the money THEY are going to have to pay.
You make an original game
>No you don’t, you make a demo/prototype – but let’s not be finicky and let’s just carry on…
But its still going to be original IPand suddenly a big developer likes it
I’ll rephrase…a publisher sees an opening in the market for such a gamesteals your idea and turns it slightly
Suddenly the protection people like you gave them is gone because some of the mechanics were used but the 2nd gen game is different enough, ie Doom and HL…both FPSs, slightly different and they are exempt from being the same game.and bang, they make millions
>2nd ‘big’ assumption. I thought only EA made millions these days… And you’ve made the demo, so you have the market lead – your job to keep it.
No….it costs millions to make games, so companies make millions and put that back into their next games while still making a profit (not millions). The likes of EA have so many games and so much marketing that it all adds up for them.
and you paid for them to do it.
>True if you’re not proactive enough, as intimated above. If you take the time, effort and resources (blood, sweat and tears, as I understand it) to develop something which is going to sell based on a ‘not-finished but published’ state, and can’t get to the market before this ‘big developer’ afterwards, well… you may be an ace game developer but you ain’t worth much as a business, period.
My point exactly. Its hard enough to get something worth selling. Showing to off to every other developer is exactly what isn’t done now because its a cut-throat industry and a small developer creates much more slowly than a big one. Is it really worth the risk ?? -
But its still going to be original IP
Yes, we are agreed. However, this is still where small and big developers alike are caught with their zip down when confronted by ‘pure biz’ people like publishers.
When you eventually understand (I’m not despairing, that’s why I got in bed with the IGDA originally), that -as developers- ALL you create, sell, license… make a living off, IS IP and nothing else, then you’ll approach the question of IP development, ownership, retention and overall business purpose slightly differently I’m sure.I’ll rephrase…a publisher sees an opening in the market for such a game.
Fine – but you were there first. Protect and/or exploit your market advantage.Suddenly the protection people like you gave them is gone because some of the mechanics were used but the 2nd gen game is different enough, ie Doom and HL…both FPSs, slightly different and they are exempt from being the same game.
You are comparing ‘generationally’-different games of a same genre. If Id had really wanted to ensure they’d get a dime for every FPS ever sold after Doom (provided it was the first), they could have – but they didn’t seek counsel at the time. Too bad for Carmack, he could have bought Ferrari instead of being a customer :D. Anyway, surely you don’t mean to say that demos on the B-side of an Xbox game would be ‘Xbox2’ games?No….it costs millions to make games, so companies make millions and put that back into their next games while still making a profit (not millions).
Just like any other business, then. Speculate to accumulate. Nothing new under the sun, ergo why would a big developer make more millions than the small developer who came up with the original IP? Can they code faster? Or is this argument a case of “Big developer gets to market first because they get published and the small guy doesn’t”?Showing off to every other developer is exactly what isn’t done now because it’s a cut-throat industry and a small developer creates much more slowly than a big one. Is it really worth the risk??
Then why disclose and compare coding gems, algorithms and the like at GDC, GDCE and comparable gatherings? Again, I’m not sure many developers understand exactly what IP ‘is’ and where its value lies.
If you were the only outfit able to code a flocking algo, you’d keep it close to your chest, not demo and explain it at GDC if you don’t want other games to incroporate one of your USPs. The same goes for everything else in a game, but that certainly isn’t what I’m seeing in this so-called ‘secretive’ industry (that it is cut-throat, I’ll not disagree – but then again show me a business which isn’t).
Demo-ing the algo on a B-side, however, is different: unless the big developer is going to decompile the demo and reverse-engineer the algo (both of which are actionable before a Court of Law if the license stipulates it), he’ll not know how it works. -
Anyway, surely you don’t mean to say that demos on the B-side of an Xbox game would be ‘Xbox2’ games?[/quote:61cee5ab18]
No, no…what i mean by 2nd gen is the demo disk is the first generation of the game, the full game is the 2nd gen of it. ( sorry for confusion )Or is this argument a case of “Big developer gets to market first because they get published and the small guy doesn’t”?[/quote:61cee5ab18]
Yes. Plus they can market it better and theoretically code faster due to more programmers and spend more time making it prettier due to more artists.Then why disclose and compare coding gems, algorithms and the like at GDC, GDCE and comparable gatherings?[/quote:61cee5ab18]
Because companies like everyone to know they have something thats great because they put a lot of effort into making it great. And why aren’t they afraid of telling people about it? Because they’ve spent a long time tweaking it and making it great, and they know that even with the know-how its going to take time for others to get it as good as theirs, by which time, theirs will have evolved. And the only way to evolve it is to see what other people do with it. But these algorithms and game ideas will only be talked about when the speakers know they have it sussed and listeners won’t be able to just go out and put something together of the same spec within a short period of time. -
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I think maybe a better idea than the whole b-side thing would be “compilation disks” sorta like the music industry’s “Now…” series. It probably would be more affordable for independant developers to go down this route aswell.
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Noy going to become embroiled in this debate too much, will just say that I agree with what Steph is saying.
ie Doom and HL…both FPSs, slightly different and they are exempt from being the same game.[/quote:b59ed46f22]
Slightly differant? The only thing they have in common is that you shoot things and the camera angle. In other words, they are both FPS’s. They are almost completely differant games in terms of design, technology and execution. I don’t understand how you can think of them as being only slightly differant and that these “slight” differances are what prevent them from being the same game!?!
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Have sunk into a a mire of work and will get back to this when I have time again….
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