- This topic has 68 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 2 months ago by
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Lets get the ball rolling…Whats the feeling of to the response article?
I think its missing out on a lot of important points that were brought up in the original article expanded here due and don’t agree with several of the arguements mentioned either but I don’t have time for a full response at the moment unfortunately…
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Did quote how many of their ex-students are working in the games industry. I know Ludo has produced a few.
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I’ll try….will probably be the weekend though :(
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I have a lengthy response of my own written which I’ll be posting over the next day or so
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Ok heres my very brief response to get things started.
I have worked in the industry for 5 years, and I am responsible for looking after our Art recruitment.
I feel very strongly that many students are being badly let down by courses.
I will happily employ anybody with the skills to do the job, regardless of qualifications.
I agree that continuing education is a feature of any workplace, ( I also look after in house training) however most employers expect new graduates to have the very latest in skills.
I know of one individual graduating without an adequate background in Photoshop or 3DS Max. Their tutor had apparently told them that they would be fine as their art skills were good, and a company would happily train them.
I’m really sorry. We make games, we don’t have time to teach you something which is part of any digital artist fundamental skillset.
The single worst thing I see, is that the quality bar is set way too low in most courses.
I have seen many applicants portfolios with anything from 1 year certificates to masters degrees, containing nothing which I would happily put into a game.
I have no doubt that many of these people have the ability to do much better. They are simply unaware of what the standard is.
One significant reason may be that some tutors have very little or terribly outdated industry experience.
I would really like to see courses publish hard data on graduate employment. This would help to inform prospective students.
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I will happily employ anybody with the skills to do the job, regardless of qualifications.
[/quote:109b111f53]So would you mind telling me where you work so I can pass it on to my terrifically talented but unfortunately unqualified artist aquaintance? No joke!
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Same sorts of issues emerging in Australia.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21133165-12332,00.html
Aphra.
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Doesn’t it ever seem to those working in academia that the games companies don’t actually deserve what they’re looking for? After you slave over a hot student (pun intended) for four years, wouldn’t you rather send them anywhere else but the games industry?
I’m not going to go trawling for figures to back this up, but having just read the article above, where "More than 700 people applied for the 163 places on the QUT degree…", where the total industry is 70 or 80 people, and the course applicants are passing over law and medicine places – it’s clear that some world-class graduates are going to be employed in those games companies in four years.
Yet what can they expect? This isn’t a government defence contract, they’re not going to be rolling in cash, and still they’ll be expected to work a full-time intensive grind until they burn out after five years. If an industry treats its employees in this way, why should they get the best?
Idora and/or some other industry folk (was it the panel at the GameOn conference in DIT? Refresh my memory Idora) have been accusing some of the games degrees of deceiving prospective applicants into thinking that the sub-par education they offer will get them a job. Maybe they do. But an industry that treats employees as asset collateral with a 5-year half-life, could be accused of a greater deception – that the job is worth having in the first place!
*rant over :twisted: *
Disclaimer – I have never worked in the games industry, only the tools dev industry. Don’t usually do disclaimers, but this one is just to circumvent any possible *whiny voice* "what do you know about it?"
Nothing, with trace amounts of anecdotal evidence, thats what I know…[/i] -
Im sure theres plenty of people in the industry at present who could have done law or medicine if they wanted.
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Im sure theres plenty of people in the industry at present who could have done law or medicine if they wanted.[/quote:f9f55149f6]
Not the point – personally I believe almost anybody can do anything if they devote their lives. The point is that maybe the games industry gets recruitment based on its glossy image, not the remuneration or QoL value of its jobs. Should these kids be encouraged to throw over potentially more rewarding careers based on what they know of games – cover packaging and the thrill of play?
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But an industry that treats employees as asset collateral with a 5-year half-life, could be accused of a greater deception – that the job is worth having in the first place! [/quote:eb0aca597b]
Eh?
I don’t know any company in any industry that treats any employee like that. I think you’ve been speaking to strange people… -
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/print/40/23
Specifically, this: "When the average career length of the game development workforce is just over five years and over 50% of developers admit they don’t plan to hang around for more than 10, we have a problem."
I don’t think Jason della Rocca is strange people, but I don’t know him. I doubt it matters what he’s like, rather what he knows.
(you made me go dig up sources. cheers)
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Not sure about exact figures but i’d say these courses would have high drop out figures, from experience of talking to some students doing courses in the north most of them don’t know whats required at all, they love playing games but even at that most of them seem very casual. Most of them don’t know what they want to specialise in. In saying that though i’ve met a few who are really into it and put in the extra work.
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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/print/40/23
Specifically, this: "When the average career length of the game development workforce is just over five years and over 50% of developers admit they don’t plan to hang around for more than 10, we have a problem."
I don’t think Jason della Rocca is strange people, but I don’t know him. I doubt it matters what he’s like, rather what he knows.
(you made me go dig up sources. cheers)[/quote:e57bdd54fb]
Same can be said for i.t. in a majority of cases id say. not everyone wants to be programming at 30, you want to be managing the code monkeys.
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I’d take that article with a pinch of salt, the majority of the work-force here have over 5 years experience, some with up to 20+ years.
As for myself, I probably can’t see myself making games for all my career, but programming is programming, and my skills will be transferable to any dev career. I don’t understand people’s opinions that qualifying to make games is such a narrow field, you should be qualifying to be a developer that specialises in games. -
Same can be said for i.t. in a majority of cases id say. not everyone wants to be programming at 30, you want to be managing the code monkeys.[/quote:b42192cc64]
Yeah doesn’t everyone want to be the boss some day ? :) I’d say there might be a family aspect to it too. At that age really, most people would like to have been settled down with a wife and kids, though I can’t speak for everyone though obviously! :wink: Nonetheless it would be very hard to maintain that sort of lifestyle when you’re working from 9am to 1am in the morning.. Now that might be an exaggeration and all but I think you get the idea..
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Yes, that is an exaggeration and its one that really needs to be kicked out, because it simply shouldn’t be true. Thats one of the reasons I left Rockstar, because I simply wasn’t prepared to work like that. I’ve never worked unreasonable over-time and I don’t intend on doing it if I can help it.
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Theres only a hand full of companies that work those hours, so for god sake can we stop this mis-conception. Usually theres one of 2 reasons for this ethic.
1: the company need to bang that title out to hit a big holiday (gta for xmas i’d imagine for the leeds team).
2: the company is in trouble and thinks working hard is going to get more done.I’ve only worked a short big of overtime here and it was all highly compensated, both financially and in grub :).
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Conversely, we worked quite a bit of overtime to get MotorStorm out the door….so crunch does exist.
I’d say expect to crunch….the amount depends on alot of factors.
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Yes, crunch does exist, but you can say no.
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I’d take that article with a pinch of salt[/quote:5d7fd73cd6]
It was written by the Executive Director of the International Game Developers Association. Ask Idora if he is worth his salt.Now, crunch time is one thing I can agree with. I find ‘crunch time’ on the projects I’m involved in to be the most enjoyable part of the process. It wouldn’t do to get too used to asking for that kind of effort full-time though, and I’m pretty positive that has happened in games in some cases *cough EA cough*
But I reiterate my original point – games companies, like all the entertainment industries, are guilty of ‘selling’ the jobs they offer based on the associated ‘coolness’ of the product they produce. No developer recruitment ad ever shows a picture of an office, they show Lara Croft.
So who are they to point fingers at the universities for mis-representing themselves? -
No developer recruitment ad ever shows a picture of an office, they show Lara Croft.
So who are they to point fingers at the universities for mis-representing themselves?[/quote:13332158f9]If the students are dumb enough to believe that bs, without having the need for a poster of an office to guide them. Then we dont want ppl that stupid working for us, id actually worry about any work environment that would take them. Seems like a health and safety rish :)
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we dont want ppl that stupid working for us, id actually worry about any work environment that would take them. Seems like a health and safety rish :)[/quote:77c6d67250]
Like Gareth from The Office? :D
Seriously though, you’re either missing or ignoring the point. In cinema, ‘runners’ work 16 hour days for no pay simply for the chance to be on a film set. How much of what should by rights be remunerated to a skilled individual worker, is actually withheld by games companies just because the junior employees accept it as ‘the cost of working in games’?
And if the tempting reply is ‘nothing’, then tell me why is this a globally recognised issue addressed by the IGDA? Are the rest of the game workers just moaning?
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How much of what should by rights be remunerated to a skilled individual worker, is actually withheld by games companies just because the junior employees accept it as ‘the cost of working in games’? [/quote:bc6c7433d8]
I’m not understanding you here? Are you moaning about the renumeration packing in games companies? If you are, I think you need to do some more research… -
I reiterate my original point – games companies, like all the entertainment industries, are guilty of ‘selling’ the jobs they offer based on the associated ‘coolness’ of the product they produce. [/quote:f173186994]
Isn’t that clear enough? It doesn’t matter what the details of individual company practice are – across the board the picture looks like exploitation to an outsider. You said it yourself – you wouldn’t stay in Rockstar cos they tried to make you do more than the job was worth, nor do you want to stay in the industry long-term…
(I don’t work in games dev, so I wouldn’t bother moaning about your pay)
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Excellent, a response worth reading, Idora. As you may have guessed, I am playing devil’s advocate up to (or should that be: beyond) a point.
In the end, although I still say games companies take advantage of the illusions of young enthusiasts simply because they can, I too fall on the side of: its not about deserving a job. No more than luck exists, to deserve is not a personal attribute.
If someone falls for the gd’s hype, thats their problem, just like coming to college expecting to be spoonfed an education is the problem of all under appreciative welfare state scions. But thats another debate…
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So how about getting this thread back on track.
Students devote a number of years studying, being paid nothing or in some cases paying for the privilege….all because they really want to work in the games industry. Rightly or wrongly, thats what they want.
How awful when all they get is a piece of paper with some letters after their name!
I would never suggest spoon feeding students, I would however advocate much higher educational standards.
Lets look at another sector for a moment….medicine, or maybe dentistry….students have to work bloody hard, nobody qualifies unless they are competent (I hope) and then they are worked around the clock for years….doesn’t stop people lining up to study medicine. (And if you reckon they have a great quality of life …look at the rates of suicide and depression amongst the medical profession,)
Again I say that industry input is vital to games design courses. These people want jobs and we want to give them jobs. We have no desire to trick or exploit them, we want to keep them and have them grow with our companies. It makes financial sense for us to do this.
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Yes, that is an exaggeration and its one that really needs to be kicked out, because it simply shouldn’t be true. Thats one of the reasons I left Rockstar, because I simply wasn’t prepared to work like that. I’ve never worked unreasonable over-time and I don’t intend on doing it if I can help it.[/quote:911ecd0602]
Thank god for that.. :) Apologies for my ignorance but i’ve absolutely no experience of what goes behind the closed doors of the industry, all I have is rumours and innuendo to go by. Still, even today you keep hearing these horror stories about people working 16 hours a day and sleeping at their desks and stuff, and generally working in conditions that are more akin to paid slavery than those in a high-tech, forward looking profession… The recent EA overtime episode did little to help this either. I guess its one particular image of itself which the industry will find very hard to shake off.
The way I see it anyhow is that you are only going to get so much out a person each day, and strectching their hours will not improve this in any way. You would probably end up getting more work out of someone who is bright and alert (and had a goods night kip) working for 8 hours than someone who is in near zombified state (due to lack of sleep) and working long shifts of up to 16 hours..
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You said it yourself – you wouldn’t stay in Rockstar cos they tried to make you do more than the job was worth, nor do you want to stay in the industry long-term… [/quote:d9e5e776a8]
There are companies you wouldn’t work for in every industry…
As for Rockstar, if you are someone willing to do lots of extra hours, they do compenstae you very well, bonuses are very good. At this point in my life, I wasn’t prepared to do that.
As for long-term…I’m talk 20 years down the line. Everyone wants to try something different. I don’t see games as the only thing in my life, I would hope to branch out in the future, being a developer means you can do that fairly easily. Who knows what state games will be in in 5, 10 or 15 years time with new consoles coming out every few years.I think we were getting confused with your ‘thoughts’ catbert as there were several unrelated arguements there.
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So how about getting this thread back on track.[/quote:fe3cc87e30]
On a game developers forum, one wouldn’t expect a good response to any questioning of the game development industry’s standard of behaviour :D
Coming back from my contrapoint, on the main topic of the thread I agree with archimage3d on the standard of education issue. I think standards of schooling on the British Isles and in the UK in particular are below that of many other european countries, and its largely the fault of the government policy to push as many through the system as possible.
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It strikes me that a fundamental problem raised in the article, is not so much the lack of communication between academia and the industry in terms of required skillsets, but the coordination of this communication.
Having X number of companies talk to Y number of Universities and/or course coordinators thereof in any possible permutation, without some sort of "central filter" to try and synchronise both sides, has to amount to a fairly futile cat-herding exercise.
So, IGDA excluded (perhaps wrongly), where’s the industry at in the UK and/or IE, in terms of a professional associative body?
I very vaguely remember noises and/or reading some material that an "Association of Game Developing Companies" (e.g.) was in the offing in the UK a while back…?
The point of this question, is that the duty of verifying the suitability of the educational content and *importantly* level of would-be game development courses would likely befall such a body, and this is bound to benefit both sides of the divide:
increased efficiency and accuracy of course providers (in that they would have quantified educational targets/milestones to reach to become accredited)
reduced staff turnover and added HR certainty for industry players (because applicants will have been ‘pre-vetted’ by an industry-devised pre-entry benchmark)
Idealistic perhaps, but for most other professions mentioned in this thread by way of example (medical, legal, etc.), this model of a professional association setting (and assessing) qualification levels and continuous professional development is the norm.
Just a passing thought :wink:
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In all things, the relative youth of the industry, and consequent immaturity* of some of its practices, seems a constant detrimental factor…
Steph’s point above perhaps a good example.
*usage implication: literal, not derogatory
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Can I ask, are the points that are being raised about unis talking to companies about courses, is this actually something that is a games only problem. It sounds more likely that its more of a global thing…is it?
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Can I ask, are the points that are being raised about unis talking to companies about courses, is this actually something that is a games only problem. It sounds more likely that its more of a global thing…is it?[/quote:f9f08e68fa]not particularly… after the article was published several people mentioned that there were similar problems in many areas, namely – graphic design, production design, film, multimedia, software/IT/CS…
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Again I say that industry input is vital to games design courses. These people want jobs and we want to give them jobs. We have no desire to trick or exploit them, we want to keep them and have them grow with our companies. It makes financial sense for us to do this.[/quote:56b8665490]I second that emotion!
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I very vaguely remember noises and/or reading some material that an "Association of Game Developing Companies" (e.g.) was in the offing in the UK a while back…?[/quote:c4755d3b27]there are several UK games-specific trade associations, including the IGDA (although it has a relatively small presence in the UK)
Skillset are accrediting the games/film/multimedia courses in the UK. Of the 40+ courses that opted in to the accreditation process, only 4 were accredited: 2 in Abertay, 1 in Paisley and 1 in Glamorgan. No certificate/diploma courses were considered for included in the vetting process.
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Again I say that industry input is vital to games design courses. These people want jobs and we want to give them jobs. We have no desire to trick or exploit them, we want to keep them and have them grow with our companies. It makes financial sense for us to do this.[/quote:b2de566659]I second that emotion![/quote:b2de566659]
So why complain about the need to train graduates into the specific skillset/project process of your company? Every industry wants to hire people with perfectly adapted skillsets and relevant experience, and still they have to have graduate training programs et al.
Surely you realise nobody is mad enough to train students to only be game developers? -
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So why complain about the need to train graduates into the specific skillset/project process of your company? [/quote:a73318a38f]training them in the specific processes, tools and systems my company might use is not the problem. Them not being able to hit the ground running – programming, rigging – IS.
Using programming as an example:
in my experience most graduates might know what SCM, commenting code, bug tracking, and being asked to estimate the effort involved in resolving a particular issue are, but as for being able to use these tools… different story. Others include: working in teams, setting up and maintaining workflow, effective communicaton, etc.Surely you realise nobody is mad enough to train students to only be game developers?[/quote:a73318a38f]of course not. never suggested otherwise… but nor do i think specialisation is a bad thing.
Personally speaking, if I was starting a programming undergraduate course I would want to do a mainstream CS course with the option to stream in games dev specific modules – much like the course in your very own alma mater, Catbert! Having said that, and again personally speaking, I think the Carlow IT and Letterkenny IT games dev/specialist courses are the best in the country. While neither of them are perfect (by the article’s criteria, for what that’s worth), they are head and shoulders above the rest of the current crop on the island… in my opinion. And the heads of those courses in both ITs are passionately committed to delivering the best course they can within their given constraints
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Having worked for 2 previous companies, I’d expect at least 2 games from those companies on the list. It’s easier to talk than walk!
Mal[/quote:487e2729e4]grow up, Mal. Using your criteria you create websites, right?self appointed head of the Irish branch of the IGDA[/quote:487e2729e4]no, I believe I volunteered. No-one else wanted the job!
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3rd games industry job, and self appointed head of the Irish branch of the IGDA ( when are those elections taking place? )- it sounds like you are the main man for games in Ireland!
Can you give us a list of the games ( please, no tech demos, games that people have purchased of a shelf – the only true test of a games quality ) you have released, so that we can marvel at them, and congratulate you on the excellent games you help created? [/quote:52a5f0c21a]
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> grow up, Mal.
That’s some list! Just to confirm, are you saying that you have never released a game, even though you are on your third games industry job?
> Using your criteria you create websites, right?
Grow up, Tony.
Mal
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now in fairness it is pretty tough to get people to volunteer time to the IGDA committee, esp as companies are getting busier and busier. Mal if you would like to contribute to the IDGA committee they would be only to glad to hear from you. I can pass on details.
I think this is also going off topic somewhat.
Aphra.
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Guys,
Can any personal differences be discussed in private please.
Dave
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there are several UK games-specific trade associations, including the IGDA (although it has a relatively small presence in the UK)
(…)
Skillset are accrediting the games/film/multimedia courses in the UK. Of the 40+ courses that opted in to the accreditation process, only 4 were accredited: 2 in Abertay, 1 in Paisley and 1 in Glamorgan. No certificate/diploma courses were considered for included in the vetting process.[/quote:107dc9fd39]But that is just my point, T. – I know that there are several VG associations/initiatives (I used to frequent GR shindigs assiduouslybefore hopping islands), and I believe these are mostly regional in character.
Why isn’t there a ‘unifying’ National Association? e.g. for the purpose of federating what the industry (at least at national level) as a whole considers essential skills (in each discipline) and minimum level thereof to ‘hit the ground running’, as you put it…
To put that in the context of your earlier post – a body for mandating to the Education System that teamworking is a sine qua none skill, that it needs to be assessed during a course (and there the industry can educate the Education System about meaningful ways and means of assessing), and that the expected standard at graduation is ‘x’.
I’m aware of ‘Skillset’. But in that instance, I see the industry having (once again?) shirked/delegated its communication responsibility (and abandoned its chance for direct interfacing with the education system) to yet another government body, with all the efficiency they are renowned for. So instead of hearding cats itself, the industry is now asking civil servants to heard them instead… :wink:
My perception of ‘typical’ industry recruitees (is there such a thing, LOL!) is that they should already have acquired readily-transferrable, industry-independent skills by the time they even consider an industry-specific course. Think of it as, say, doctors, who train for X years to be a doctor (acquiring base knowledge applicable to any medical discipline), then for Y years to be an ORL, surgeon, GP, pediatrician, etc. In that context, any argument that games-oriented courses should not be games-only, but impart yet more ‘readily-transferrable, industry-independent skills’ is IMHO flawed and a disservice to the industry which motivated the courses in the 1st place.
So, when students are considering a games-only course, to my mind it should be up to the industry to:
‘garantee’ that this course will equip them with what is required/expected of them, through appropriate mandating/standard-setting of the Educators and course-accrediting;
‘garantee’ that this course will not equip them with what is required/expected of them by not accrediting the course;
‘garantee’ that students won’t be allowed to entertain false hopes when they don’t meet a base standard for starting such a course in the 1st place;
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I’ve heard of people in the industry for as long as 10 years and not releasing anything, so thats not really a valid argument.
I can say my crunch time experience is pretty much the same as Idora’s, actually I would say less, probably only about 1 month and a half month’s worth. If you’d like, I can give oyu my list of published titles…There’s an article in this month’s Devlop about an Academy for games in the UK…I had a quick scan through the online edition last night.
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There’s an article in this month’s Devlop about an Academy for games in the UK…I had a quick scan through the online edition last night.[/quote:8f9a65bda7]
Ya i had a brief look at the article this morning, over breakfast. must read it in full at lunch.
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It has to be said that usually there is a special department/person whose job it is to sort out intra/job placement early in the year that it will take place and they keep a database of companies etc. who are willing to take people.
At least that is what happens in my experience in other colleges with other types of courses i.e. software, media studies. If the students secure a place themselves well great.
I have some sympathy with the students on this one, the college should have been more organised and arranged work experience, not necessarily in game companies, but in companies where they can get some relevant experience. On the other hand colleges are pressured into putting in work experience into course structures without much recognition as to how difficult and time consuming it is to organise and source.
Given the size of the local industry and the growing no of courses this is going to be a challenge for some time to come for both colleges and students I expect.
Aphra.
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…usually there is a special department/person whose job it is to sort out intra/job placement early in the year that it will take place and they keep a database of companies etc. who are willing to take people.
Aphra.[/quote:49149c0ec8]
The sad part… there is someone who has this exact job in Carlow.
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Indeed, despite some of its faults the INTRA system here in DCU is extremely well organised. Students are informed during the Summer of the workings of the system for the year ahead and are given sufficient time to find placement on their own. Each course has its own co-ordinator who is always available to take any queries and is more than willing to help out a student with communication with a company they might find themselves.
However I can understand the predicament facing some of the students in Carlow and the likes. Even in a degree as broad as Computer Applications the INTRA office still has trouble finding sufficient numbers of relevant and worthwhile placement positions for students each year. Placement even mildly relevant or beneficial to games dev/design students would be even more difficult to secure I would imagine.
That said I would be of the opinion that it’s no harm for students to take the initiative on the work placement front and actively seek it well in advance of the colleges themselves. Students should know there is going to be fierce competition for places and from my experience anyway companies look more favourably on those students who get more involved in the process.
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Always gonna be a problem in welfare states – students not appreciating just how much their free third level education is worth, in every sense. Makes ’em lazy… :wink:
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However I can understand the predicament facing some of the students in Carlow and the likes. Even in a degree as broad as Computer Applications the INTRA office still has trouble finding sufficient numbers of relevant and worthwhile placement positions for students each year. Placement even mildly relevant or beneficial to games dev/design students would be even more difficult to secure I would imagine.[/quote:7ea7749095]
Yeah thats the big problem us second year students in Carlow are going to face next year now… I find it suprising considering the input the X-Box team has had on the course that they would find it a realistic goal to get every student in industrial placement in the games industry for third year.. Conversely though I feel that maybe its a good thing- putting this big target in front of us should only help spur us on and make us more determined to get out there and get noticed, so maybe its not so bad after all..
Always gonna be a problem in welfare states – students not appreciating just how much their free third level education is worth, in every sense. Makes ’em lazy… Wink[/quote:7ea7749095]
I beg to differ!
Although I understand where you are coming from, I think making vast generalisations such as this is not truly representative of the entire picture.
In my own case, I get up at 6.30 every morning and get a bus to Carlow IT because I cannot afford to stay down there and hence I have to commute. I then spend the whole day in college, going to classes and doing project work in between classes, and then leave on the bus at around 5 to go home. The rest of my day then consists of working on any projects or assignments i have due, or just doing study. I generally stay up until 1am in the morning until when I am so tired I just HAVE to collapse into bed and get some sleep. Last night for instance I stayed up until half 2 in the morning working on a problem with one of the latest projects I got. And no, I don’t get a grant from the government either because I am not deemed ‘worthy’… So would you call call me lazy or unappreciative of the support the goverment has given me? I eat breathe and sleep games development because its something I really enjoy and something I’d like to do with my life. Making good games that people really enjoy feels like a worthwhile occupation to me and I’m trying my darndest to get good at it and make a career from it, despite all the neighsayers that would tell me I’m wasting my time. I’m sorry for getting so narky with you and foremost apologies for this (I’m just back from the pub too so don’t be surpised if i’m a bit rowdy!! :) ), but it really pisses me off when I see other wasters in college pissing away the chance of a lifetime, getting grants and other support from their parents and then doing f**k all with it. What pisses me off even more is people trying to tar me with the same brush and call me lazy too.. So don’t go start going down that road.. please! :wink:
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:shock:
*cowers in fear*If I EVER implied you were lazy, I most humbly apologise… :oops:
But to defend those who are "pissing it away" – you have a great deal of motivation and determination, Darragh. That and I’m pretty sure your brain is wired differently than the rest of us :)… In a good way, I swear!
My point is, there’s a lot of distractions out there for someone going through college for the first time, living away from home (and any parental pressure to perform), going out a lot, whatever.
This doesn’t apply to me, but there are some who jumped on the course simply because the word "games" was in the title, and they thought it’d be a laugh. Some of them will go on to other courses, when they realise this discipline isn’t for them. For now though, they’re just going to enjoy the roid.
And as for those that are genuinely struggling (*cough*), it boils down to the fact that the academic side of it just comes easier to some than it does to others. (And I’ll accept no disputing of that basic fact, none of this "we’re all instanciated equally by the great programmer-God in the sky" crap!)
Btw, you’re anything but lazy ;)
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:shock:
*cowers in fear*If I EVER implied you were lazy, I most humbly apologise… :oops:[/quote:87c1a98429]
That was you Brendan ? :D No need to apologise man- I was only making a friendly ( post pub :) )argument and I hope you didn’t think that it was an attack on your person- I didn’t intend it to come across that way. Ok so my posting might have been a little over top (I get overly passionate about certain issues sometimes) but it was all in good nature I assure you. :wink:
The point I was trying to make (perhaps in a somewhat skewed manner) is that you cannot go putting labels on people like that. Everyone is different and no two persons are the same. I’m also sick of the stereo-type of all college students being labelled as useless pot smoking bums who are leeching off their parents and the state and who are too lazy to go out and get a real job. I guess I felt compelled to speak up and dispell that myth- especially since I am a student myself. In my time in Carlow and Waterford IT i’ve seen a lot of hardworking students who are honestly trying their level best to get on in their course and make a better life for themselves. I’ve have also seen the opposite end of the spectrum, and while I have nothing against these people personally (In fact I get on very well with most of them) I do not think its fair that they are getting a chance that so many others are denied (for whatever reasons) and then throwing it all away.
But to defend those who are "pissing it away" – you have a great deal of motivation and determination, Darragh. That and I’m pretty sure your brain is wired differently than the rest of us :)… In a good way, I swear![/quote:87c1a98429]
Listen I am no different to anyone else in that way- I do not have a special implant in my brain that says ‘go get em tiger!’ :P . If you think I am determined then the only reason for it is because I have come to the stark realisation of whats waiting out there in the world when I leave college. There is just so much competition out there and so many people vying for jobs, and its getting harder all the time. Even more so with the games development. The recent visit of the panel of Irish game development figureheads to the college was gave more than enough confirmation of this.
My point is, there’s a lot of distractions out there for someone going through college for the first time, living away from home (and any parental pressure to perform), going out a lot, whatever.[/quote:87c1a98429]
True, and there is nothing wrong with such things. In fact it would be a sad case if all you did was just work or study. I always try to get out at the weekend and will always spare time to go see the girlfriend whenever she wants to meet up. I also have an impending driving test to worry about as well. I wouldn’t consider these distractions as such, they are a part of life and there’s more to life than just work. The only problem some people have is finding a balance between all these things. Too much of anything is a bad thing..
This doesn’t apply to me, but there are some who jumped on the course simply because the word "games" was in the title, and they thought it’d be a laugh. Some of them will go on to other courses, when they realise this discipline isn’t for them. For now though, they’re just going to enjoy the roid. [/quote:87c1a98429]
Yeah its always going to be a problem with a course such as this. Its a pity because these people probably could have been doing something else which they would have enjoyed more and been better at. Also I think that maybe somewhere out there, there were people who did not get onto the course and who would have done brilliant at it. I think everyone is good at something and they deserve to have a shot at that. Sometimes though, people find it hard to realise just what this ‘thing’ is.. But hey, thats life- and people do make mistakes believe it or not.
And as for those that are genuinely struggling (*cough*), it boils down to the fact that the academic side of it just comes easier to some than it does to others. (And I’ll accept no disputing of that basic fact, none of this "we’re all instanciated equally by the great programmer-God in the sky" crap!)[/quote:87c1a98429]
While I won’t dispute that some things come easier to certain people than others, I’ll never accept the fact that certain people are just ‘born’ good at things and were ‘born’ to do a certain job- thats complete and utter bulls**t if you will pardon my French! If someone is successful and is good at what they do its purely down to the fact that they worked hard at it and tried their best. Like one of my old school teachers once said- ‘if you throw enough mud at the wall it will stick eventually’. For some people this process takes longer, but I think everyone has the ability to do what they want- if they try hard enough at it that is.
Btw, you’re anything but lazy ;)[/quote:87c1a98429]
I should hope not, lest I fly off on one of my ‘world-famous’ rants again! :wink: Just kidding! :lol: Now I think its time this thread got back on topic. Its gone a bit by the wayside, which is mainly of my own doing. Sorry!
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Always gonna be a problem in welfare states – students not appreciating just how much their free third level education is worth, in every sense. Makes ’em lazy… Wink[/quote:4e8d703f39]
I beg to differ!
Although I understand where you are coming from, I think making vast generalisations such as this is not truly representative of the entire picture.
In my own case…[/quote:4e8d703f39]
I’d say you’re an exception rather than a rule darrage, i think cabert is right, the majority of students, ones that i’ve encountered doing games courses have fit that bill.
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Always gonna be a problem in welfare states – students not appreciating just how much their free third level education is worth, in every sense. Makes ’em lazy… Wink[/quote:84a9e4b716]
I beg to differ!
Although I understand where you are coming from, I think making vast generalisations such as this is not truly representative of the entire picture.
In my own case…[/quote:84a9e4b716]
I’d say you’re an exception rather than a rule darrage, i think cabert is right, the majority of students, ones that i’ve encountered doing games courses have fit that bill.[/quote:84a9e4b716]
Why are you saying that it is just students that are like this? Walk around any town in Ireland and watch the leeches in their 1982 Ford Fiestas with a spoiler that looks like it was found at a Concorde crash site drive by hassling people before they go home and sleep in their mothers house until 4pm. I think what you mean to say is, the majority of PEOPLE are lazy and unmotivated!!
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DOMINOES! 8)
Sorry, sorry… back on topic now… carry on.
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Always gonna be a problem in welfare states – students not appreciating just how much their free third level education is worth, in every sense. Makes ’em lazy… Wink[/quote:6315198ba4]
I beg to differ!
Although I understand where you are coming from, I think making vast generalisations such as this is not truly representative of the entire picture.
[/quote:6315198ba4]Given the effort you put into your work, I thought that was quite a restrained reply!
But you missed one thing, old boy – my generalisation applied to welfare states, not the students within them. The quantity of students referred to was unspecified, you see. Just a language game, but a game nonetheless! :D -
DOMINOES! 8)
Sorry, sorry… back on topic now… carry on.[/quote:a4a3c36d12]
Hey thats Adrians phrase man! :lol:
Given the effort you put into your work, I thought that was quite a restrained reply!
But you missed one thing, old boy – my generalisation applied to welfare states, not the students within them. The quantity of students referred to was unspecified, you see. Just a language game, but a game nonetheless! [/quote:a4a3c36d12]Ah, thought it was a bit much to be honest- but sure what the heck anyhow! :) Ah I see, I suppose you have yourself covered with that one there :wink:
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From the group of guys and girls I left secondary school with, a number of us have gone on to study something related to games in 3rd level education in a number of different colleges. I really think misrepresentation of courses and course content is a serious problem. just think of the situation
You have a 17/18 year old leaving school with little or no experience of the real world. The sources of information for a prospective student are as follows (please correct me if i miss any) and all of them have their problems.1: College prospectus
Well its published by the college and its a sales pitch basically. Its not impartial and subject modules with headings such as Software Design doesn’t tell you if its appropriate for or even what part of the games industry its aimed at (is it developing an engine or building an application with middle ware?) or if they investigate the area in enough detail. Is one module in my second year enough time dedicated to graphics and physical modeling? Audio module’s…is this editing and composition of sound or implementation? The person is 17 and is probably going to make an assessment on limited experience and its probably going to be pretty naive.2: Magazines (Edge, Games TM, ect)
Magazines occasionally run articles on college courses, and Edge runs student/college profiles. These nearly always have a positive spin and offer very little detailed information on the course and to the best of my knowledge they don’t highlight any of the negative aspects of a college or course.3: Open days
I myself have been give some dubious at best information at open days and I have heard horror story’s of lecturers openly lie about course content. It is easy enough to make a course sound attractive to a naive 17/18 year old with dreams of making games with out telling them lies. Also you rarely get to meet all the lecturers on an open day and you have no way of assessing their teaching ability or dedication other than a very quick chat if your lucky.4: Current and Ex students of the colleges
Ah the best hope of getting accurate information on a course….or not. Students lie or don’t know what they are talking about, maybe he/she is disgruntled because they feel they didn’t get the grade they deserve, or have bought into the course heart and soul and think that the teachers can do no wrong or maybe are just trying to convince themselves.5: Websites (such as this one)
Well some of the information in the courses section of this site is out of date. The Game carer guide on Gamasutra seems pretty good ( I haven’t read much on it so please correct me if I’m wrong) but if you do a search for a college in the UK or Ireland you get a small paragraph of prospectus style information.So a lot of students go into college with misconceptions and are putting their faith in the academic institution to at least give the opportunity to gain the skills to enter the industry, and a lot of colleges seem to be letting them down. From talking to friends in several colleges both in the UK and Ireland I’m of the opinion that very few colleges are offering an all round good course, but some seem to be at offering something decent, I’ll see how accurate this opinion is when I finish college. I’ll either have a job or I wont.
(please before someone roasts me alive for saying this…its not my opinion I’m only trying to highlight some of the opinions of students and I’m not having a go at any ANYONE or ANY COLLEGE)
As for the point of also training students for the wider multimedia industry rather than just focusing just on the Games industry, I have studied multimedia in college before moving onto games and there are many similarities but also some differences so I think colleges that are teaching modules with adaptability need to highlight this. I have also spoken to some students in a number of colleges that are of the opinion that this can just be an excuse for a college to teach the stuff their staff are good at in the way they like, pertinent or not to the games industry…or to give the staff their contracted hours.Yes in every class there will always be students that don’t work, hand up sub standard assignment and still expect to be handed a job at the other end. So i guess the industry will always receive applications from time wasters.
To sum it up:
The opinion of some of the students I have talked to is that it is really difficult to get accurate information on a course or college.The Industry doesn’t seem to be communicating to the colleges what they want or the colleges are ignoring them.
Crops of lazy and poorly trained grads have soured the industry against hiring graduates in the future.
I don’t think this will be solved until there is a transparent system for assessing the performance and standards of college’s and the Industry spells out it’s requirements in big easy to read letters because the message isn’t getting across, if it was a highly skilled work force would be pouring out of colleges.
This is just a collection of opinions from some of the students I have talked to, I am still student and in college to learn, so if anyone disagrees with what is said here please correct me!
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Good points.
The Industry doesn’t seem to be communicating to the colleges what they want or the colleges are ignoring them. [/quote:0b1d5aff06]
I think its more to do with courses not asking industry people, if you were a lecturer in Ireland, who do you ask in Ireland about course content?? -
I think its more to do with courses not asking industry people, if you were a lecturer in Ireland, who do you ask in Ireland about course content??[/quote:4a2620d3e9]
there are a few companies i think, but until the industry gets bigger maybe they are better off talking to overseas industry?
Hopefully that will change. From the turn out of people at the HUB last week it looks like college’s are coming out of isolation. I think the best stimulation for growth is friendly competition. And media exposure from doing well at the likes of DARE can only be good for colleges.
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